In the Hands of Your Podcasters: IN THE HANDS OF THE PROPHETS (1.19)

Jumja sticks! Sexy Vedeks! The Sydney Opera House as fashion accessory! It’s the explosive season finale of DS9, and Lily and Cole are as fired up as a schoolhouse on fire. Showrunner Michael Piller intended “In the Hands of the Prophets” to serve as a bookend to the pilot, “Emissary,” revisiting Sisko’s relationships with Bajor, the Prophets, and his devoutly religious first officer, Major Kira. In turn, we use this super-sized podcast episode to revisit some of the recurring themes of Deep Space Wine’s inaugural season, including: Lily and Cole’s will-they-won’t-they dynamic; lamenting the sorry state of Miles and Keiko’s marriage; and endlessly debating which characters are smashable. (Lily’s taken by a certain cherry-red kimono.)

🍷 Wine pairing: Champagne from Ruinart
❤️ Talk to us: Find us on Insta @deepspacewine_podcast

Chapters

• 0:00 Intro: Seasonal bookends
• 18:47 Wine pairing
• 28:35 Episode recap
• 1:32:28 Final thoughts: Have Lily and Cole come as far as Sisko and Kira?

Transcript

Cole: [00:00:00] Hey everyone. I'm Cole Paulson. 

Lily: And I'm Lily Rossen. 

Cole: And welcome to the season one finale of Deep Space Wine, the podcast that has attempted to bravely recap and decode every episode of season one of Deep Space nine, the Forgotten Stepchild of the Star Trek Universe. Each episode. We share a bottle of wine, we wind down, and then wind ourselves up again with our strong opinions about DS9 because in our social experience, there's nothing people love more than when someone talks at length about Star Trek or wine. 

Lily: Or, Jump Jar Sticks. 

Cole: so much to say about Jumjah Sticks. 

Lily: But just quickly, I was on the edge of my seat how far you were going to take that past tense thing. I was like, and then we wound down and wound up and then we drank and I was like, is he going to do it? Yeah. 

Cole: then I started changing tense halfway [00:01:00] through like a bad college essay.

It just got messy. I 

Lily: it. But like, If you think about our podcast, it is like a bad college essay. 

So, 

Cole: I often think that it's like a good college essay. 

Lily: You're right. No, I'm being self deprecating. I actually think it's high distinctions all around. Um, Of course you do.

Dumbjaw sticks, right? Am I right? 

Cole: And, everything they represent, 

Lily: What do they do?

And what don't they? And I have things to say. And Freud has things to say. 

Cole: Freud has a lot to say about those jumbo 

Lily: sticks. He's lot of things to say. Um, yeah. 

Cole: Uh, we did it. We've come to the grand season finale.

 this one. We got, We got jump dress sticks. We got big sets. We got big actors. We've got, fashions galore. I mean The looks this episode is serving. 

Lily: it's a great episode to end on because I think it really encapsulates a lot of, why we're here in the first place.

and uh, It's not just drink tasty juice. but 

Cole: if you insist, 

Lily: so on this note [00:02:00] I will say I've done some listening, to our podcast and I've noticed a bit of a trajectory that happens over the course of our season. 

Lily: some

things have changed, some things have stayed the same as you might imagine.

but one of the things is that, compared to the first episode, Cole and I, we've kind of gone hog wild down the rabbit hole of comparative secondary sources. 

Cole: If you listen to our first 

Lily: episode, we mainly talk about our thoughts and feelings regarding the episode.

and then as, One might argue either a good or bad college essay, we're like, but what about secondary sources? And I was like, God, imagine if we were just still talking about how a scene made us feel. Um, But I do think we got a bit bored with that. so to really mess with all of y'all's brains.

 Um, My secondary text for this episode is going to be the first episode of. The podcast, Deep Space Wine. 

Cole: Um, My brain is exploding. Uh, And my heart. 

Lily: Yeah, feelings are important. [00:03:00] Feelings. all I'm gonna 

Cole: say I like talking about my feelings, but they don't get me an A plus on my college essays, Lily, 

Lily: but they do win friends and, as we know, we have parasocial relationships with people out there and they probably want to know our feelings about things. So 

Cole: It's been really comforting to have recruited some listeners during this season who tolerate our secondary sources and our feelings 

Lily: Recruited. I like it how you make us sound, like a cult. 

Cole: said the word, I wasn't going to say it out loud. 

Lily: Look, told you this before, but one of our friends did say that they could see me as a cult leader. and it's probably the nicest thing anyone's ever said about me.

So 

Cole: I'm here to argue, because you're the leader , and I'm terrified of disagreeing with the cult leader. I 

Lily: am, that's right. You know what happens. get in the box. 

Cole: That's a great season two episode, by the way, and I love it. 

Lily: So I'll be taking my cues from Michael Piller who has [00:04:00] described This episode, in the hands of the prophets? he describes this episode, as a bookend episode to the Emissary. he saying it creates this bookend to the season. there's a confrontation that seems to have been coming all along. and we've met all these different people and found out what their lives were like and everything was coming to a head for this, final episode.

and, on that note, Iris Stephen Bear, from the mouth of God, he says in the hands of the prophets, it's not just another episode. It's a season ending episode that re examines the relationship between Bajor and the Federation and the relationship between Sisko and Kira and gives us some proper breaking drama.

so yes, the secondary text, one might call this a meta analysis, what I'll be looking at really is, our discussion of the first episode, emissary, the part two, episode because.

I really didn't want to watch Emissary again. And I was like, I'm going to hear what these podcasters had to say about Emissary and that's how I will get my facts

Cole: Hmm. 

Lily: it. I was like, I don't know it is about these two, but I really trust them for some reason.

and then I'll also be diving into our respective opinions [00:05:00] of DS9 in general. How that's changed, how that stayed the same. and I might even be asking the question, if Lillian, Cole uh, Bajor and the Federation, who is who? Or if Lillian, Cole, Asisko and Kira, who is who? 

Cole: Yes. Wading into some really dangerous territory. Yes. 

Lily: it. We'll offend each other so much that we cancel the podcast and this is the last time you ever heard from us. Or each other. 

Cole: Things are about to get tense. 

Lily: is that, are you with me? 

Cole: You're a smart 

Lily: guy, you've got high distinctions for your college essays.

Lily: So 

Cole: effectively, this is the bookend to Emissary, the season premiere, and you are going to treat this as a bookend to our journey together on this podcast from episode one until now.

Correct. I'm here for it. I'm ready. Also, I just want to give a shout out to our man, David Livingston. Speaking of highlights from, our first season on deep space wine, we had an amazing interview with David Livingston, the most prolific Star Trek director 

Lily: has heard about that, 

Cole: but it's come up a few times. 

But they brought the big guns back for the finale and, [00:06:00] the crowds are back. the camera work is back. I don't know if you caught them, there's some amazing cinematography going on and I will be, singling it out because Mr.

Livingston, I applaud you. 

Lily: It was very fun. It was very fun. It was Hitchcockian. There's amazing camera angles. 

Cole: Yeah, that was the big thing that came up. in our conversation with, David Livingston, he's got this amazing encyclopedic knowledge of, film history.

And it came through again with some Hitchcock here. love that you spotted that too. 

Lily: Nah, he's old mate David Livingston. So yeah, a is what we're doing. Can I tell you some of the things that I noticed as retrospectives in both this episode and Our episode one. 

Cole: Yes, please.

Lily: . So from Emissary in Deep Space Nine. The main, thematic things that I've noticed a link between, is the Bajoran geopolitical relations with the Federation , the first and the last episode is quite devoted to this, Sisko and Kira's relationship, as I also hinted at. 

Cole: Which I love. I love it whenever they give airtime to that. so I was so glad that came back. 

Lily: Me too.

Um, O'Brien, [00:07:00] like being very O'Brien heavy, I'd forgotten how much O'Brien was in Emissary. his ongoing struggles and his ongoing marriage struggles. Let's be honest. 

Cole: Yeah, picking up on the major themes of the show here 

Lily: Um, Odo and Quark's love story, it's not biggest subject matter, but it's definitely played with. And then also the series not really knowing what to do with Bashir and Dax that is made a bunch of, in this final episode, they, pretty much non existent.

Cole: You barely see them. 

Lily: Yeah. but 

Cole: we can talk progress, Bashir does not hit on Dex once. And that is what I call evolution 

Lily: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. and then I guess also Sisko's motivation, that's the main theme of, episode one, Emissary, what's happened to him to bring him to this point in his life, his wife has died, he's been through this trauma, he's come to the station, he's in this position, he doesn't want to be in.

What Fango Dango then in the wormhole, with some aliens and suddenly he's the emissary and everything's changed and he's inextricably. entwined with Bajor the wormhole 

and I think that, [00:08:00] we can look at who he is in that first episode and the beginning of his evolution and see. A different person this episode. I would argue. 

Cole: Totally. Totally agree. 

Lily: Things I noticed from episode one of Deep Space One. You ready? cringe? And these are things that we were bringing up day one.

Cole: Okay

Lily: Number one being, who is smashable? Pretty much the first thing that we talk about. Who would you smash? Who would you not smash? And I don't this is, 

Cole: you saying that have we evolved beyond that? this not worthy of discussion? 

Lily: I guess I'm saying I'll never change. You can't make me change. And I'm the cult leader. So get back in your box. 

Cole: Because I do have questions related to that this episode. 

Lily: to who is smashable, 

Cole: Yep 

Lily: Another thing I noticed, and my little shout out to you, Mr. Paulson, acknowledging that from the very beginning, you're pretty good at summarizing my chaotic thoughts, but not just that. I don't know if people know this, but we do this podcast for free.

And when I say we, I mean that I buy some wine and then we [00:09:00] sit down and record this together, but then I go on my merry way and Cole Polson painstakingly, produces and edits the beautiful product that we send out into the world and I do nothing. So thank you Cole for all your hard work.

Over the year. 

Cole: Oh, it's least I can do for the delicious wine you've introduced to my life. So

I feel like we're even, 

Lily: okay, another thing is, in that first episode we have some wildly differing opinions about characters, text, subtext, acting choices. Um, Cole, you say that you will defend Nanar visitors. Acting choices to your dying breath. 

Cole: Did I say that? 

Lily: a quote, a direct quote. maybe we've changed me. We haven't changed. 

Cole: Have you and I fought as much as Sisko and Kira?

Have we had as many disagreements over the course of the season as they have? 

Lily: Now that I look back on it, I think we've had some pretty strong disagreements about some 

Cole: very 

Lily: unimportant things mostly about people's acting choices. I'm not going to lie. That's our main point of [00:10:00] contention.

Cole: Sisko's diction. We've had some words about that. yeah. 

what matters is that we've, we've come through, closer and stronger for it.

We've worked through our differences, I think. 

Lily: Yeah, 

 Um,

From the very first episode, there was a bit of an obsession with fashion props, mise en scene, and it's not just me. It's also you, 

Cole: Really? Yes. I thought you like infected me with that obsession.

Lily: No, go back and listen to it. You're noticing these things too. I'm just maybe bringing them to the fore a little bit more than you want them to be. and now, I don't know, maybe that's different. So yeah, this will the meta mindfuck, and this will be an extra special episode for anyone with anxiety because Cole and I will be analyzing our analysis in real time.

Cole: In

Lily: but yeah, for the actual episode, Pretty classic, A and B story. we've got the A story, which is a Bajoran political religious conflict. they're in conflict with the ideology of the Federation, 

 And then the B story, which is a classic science y mystery with a death. and also [00:11:00] O'Brien considering adultery, which I didn't see coming, That's cool too. And then these. Turned out to be directly interconnected storylines, some other things to consider throughout the episode. maybe more just like threads we can pull out rather than totally deep diving into the main one being religious orthodoxy versus 

Cole: Mm hmm.

Lily: Cole, you probably got some things to say about that.

Cole: Got some thoughts?

Lily: Yeah, I'm not gonna dunk on organized religion. Maybe I'm gonna leave that to you. But yes, some, parallels to creationism versus evolution in public schools in America is the main thing. 

Cole: I think there's parallels to many religions. talked about it before, but Bajoran religion is sort of like grab bag of like a grazing platter of, all these different human religions and it takes different things it evokes different things from all these different religions, including, evangelical movement in the U. S. for sure. 

Lily: The thing I was reading about was the links to Catholicism.

Did you do something about that? So Robert Hewitt Wolfe, based the Bajoran system on Apparently 15th and 16th century Catholicism. 

Cole: Really?

Lily: Yeah. [00:12:00] So when the Pope was more of a political figure, than today, and all the different orders were vying to have their candidate installed as Pope, which is something that we see play out with the different orders within the Bajoran religion. 

Cole: Ah, 

Lily: and then I've got a quote from him, which is pretty good. he says, I have a serious objection to people trying to impose their values on other people. And that's what this episode is about. No one has the right to force anyone to believe the things that they believe. That's one of the beautiful things about vision of IDIC.

Do you know about IDIC? 

Cole: Absolutely. Infinite, 

Lily: infinite diversity and infinite combinations. That was one of the things that we really wanted to hammer home here. Sisko does everything not to impose his values on the Bajorans, but Vedic Gwynn is determined to impose her values on everyone. 

Cole: Fedequin, so many great things in this episode.

It is rich. Yeah. Um, I'm already predicting that I'm the Kira to our Kira Sisko dynamic.

Lily: I was Kira. Shit. 

Cole: Interesting. 

I'm ready to challenge Wolf's statement [00:13:00] there, that, Sisko's stance here is about infinite diversity and infinite combinations. I think the episode is even more nuanced than the writer, Robert Hewitt Wolfe, might have even intended it to be. And I actually really love it. it's a really good sort of ethical conundrum that they set up the way all the best Star Trek episodes managed to do. think it challenged a lot of my beliefs about the relationship between science and religion 

Lily: Yeah. and I guess, just to draw it back to episode one of deep space wine, there was quite a lot of discussion about a young Cole and, how Star Trek is foundational in his understanding of himself.

Cole: Absolutely.

Lily: But, young Cole also came from a religious background so I we've got a bit of a melting pot there of, 

Cole: yeah, it's true. In fact, when I was a teenager, I actually, I wrote a letter to Star Trek magazine, speaking in support of Kira's faith and saying that I appreciated Kira's character as representing, uh, devout, faithful, and strong person on Star Trek and saying that was a [00:14:00] nice, a nice sort of counterweight, to all the probably atheist Starfleet officers and showing that, faith can be a source of strength and courage, rather than a sort of weakness. So that was little 12 year old Cole speaking up for faith in the Star Trek universe. 

Lily: I, I agree with. 12 year old Cole. And I think , over the series, you see the comfort and the joy that Kira and also the other residents on Deep Space Nine take from the religion.

Obviously. Still a nuanced portrayal because like in this episode, it's clearly, religion can be used for evil. but yeah, I think we do get to see Kira's strength and love for her religion and her gods. And, yeah, would I write to a magazine? No, because they don't exist anymore.

So showing your age there, Cole Paulson. But, no, but I, I think I agree with. That sweet little boy. 

 I guess we could briefly talk about Louise Fletcher who plays Vedic 

Cole: Heck yes.

Lily: This is the introduction of her character arguably The greatest villain in Star Trek. I'm calling it. 

Cole: Wow. [00:15:00] Is, is there a Star Trek villain we love to hate more than Vedequin? 

Lily: No. 

Cole: She's got to take the cake.

Lily: the softly spoken, manipulative, cloying, sneaky, , political, self motivated, villain. it's what I want to see.

Cole: the doublespeak, the passive aggression. Sometimes I hate to hate her. 

Lily: Ooh, it makes me shudder. 

Cole: I mean, actually hate to hate her because she's so loathsome. Also, here's another little snippet from 13 year old Cole.

Yes. I had this horrific realization one day in Sunday school that my youth group leader at my church reminded me exactly of Vediquin. 

Lily: Oh no.

Cole: And that's the moment I decided I wanted to stop going to Sunday school. Oh, Star 

Lily: Trek. 

Cole: Sorry, that's the moment I decided I wanted to stop attending that, Sunday school.

Lily: okay. 

But was she like, per se? 

Cole: she was so cloying. And she wanted to. Smother you with kindness, but it was [00:16:00] always calculated. there was always these machinations turning about, How can I frankly, like, how can I, get Cole to convince all of his friends who he goes to school with? To come to church tomorrow so that I can convert them all? Yeah, you were a tool. definitely. 

, facade of kindness with the very apparent broader machinations going on behind the surface. 

Lily: It's actually scarier than someone just outright being a bad person, 

Cole: No, exactly. 

Because then it also forces you to engage with them. You also, basically have to speak their language and you see Sisko slipping into this double speak with win. 

Lily: Yeah. It forces you to engage with the psychodrama, and once you're in it, it's really hard to slip away from it.

God, 12 year old Cole you went through a lot. what if she's listening to this podcast? Would she know it's her? 

Cole: Definitely. 

Definitely. 

Lily: Yeah. Cole saw you. He saw right through that lady. 

Cole: I remember I got in the car once after youth group and I was like, mom. She is exactly like Kai [00:17:00] Wen. did your mom say? She did not disagree. 

Lily: Yeah. 

Cole: That's cool. I mean, It is what it is. Shout out to your 

Lily: mum for hearing that.

Cole: She gets it. 

Lily: Yeah. I also had a, bit of a thing about how Vedic Wynn is like a new breed of con man. That she's like a bit of a snake oil salesman, but she, she's selling a product that really seems like she believes in it, but we might find out later throughout the series.

This is, This is a long form theory that you have to watch the entire series to understand. What we understand at this point is that she claims to have spoken to the prophets, but that spoiler we'll find out later. She reveals she's never spoken with them. 

Cole: I think it's the most interesting question about when is, is her faith?

How faithful is she? How much does she believe? I think that's what keeps her interesting because I'm, I'm never really sure. 

Lily: Yeah, I think, to me, she's a character where everything is a power grab. will see in this episode, and we'll see throughout the series that she will continually enact things that, completely go against the Bajoran faith, in an attempt to seat herself in a greater position of [00:18:00] power.

she's, she really is the dark side of religion. 

Cole: no, definitely. she's an amazing character, in that regard. 

Lily: And my final question is, do you think I, did I blow my load earlier talking about moral panic in a previous episode? Should I save it for this? 

Cole: No, this is cumulative, Lily.

We're building on discussions from past episodes. 

Lily: All right. Because I was like, this would have, been a good one to discuss moral panic. the way Vedic Wynne is able to. whip up a frenzy so quickly. 

Cole: When we discussed duet, we talked about moral panic.

We talked about history repeating itself and, history being cyclical. So we're, we're building yeah I mean, Deep Space Nine is building on its themes.

 It's building this opus, one episode at a time, much like Deep Space Wine. 

Lily: Deep Space Wine. 

Cole: so get into Moral Panic.

I'm here for it. 

Lily: Great. The wine. 

Yes. I'll stop talking soon cause you are going to recap this, but Because I did my sort of re listening, I have two retractions that I'd like to make.

I have fact checked myself because no one else can be bothered to do it, 

Cole: this is big of [00:19:00] you. For a cult leader, this is big of you. 

Lily: I know, but I have to show transparency or at least give the appearance of transparency. I hear that's really important. I'll tell you, tonight we'll be drinking a champagne, and in a previous episode we talked about the coupe, and I told you it was modelled after Marie Antoinette's breasts.

Do you remember this? 

Cole: Yeah. are you gonna take that away from me?

Lily: Okay. while some people maintain that, this is true.

They are Marie Antoinette's breasts. It's more wildly. agreed that it was Madame de Pompadour. who, if you don't know, it was, Louis XV. 

Cole: Interesting.

Lily: and it, it makes sense cause it's a bit more of a classic mistress bit. Don't you think? Oh yeah. Give me a glass of my boo and then drink out of it. Oh, like I'm fine. 

Cole: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I could see Louis being like, Hey, I've got my side piece here. come take a cast of her breasts.

Lily: Yeah. He just loved it. He loves champagne as well. He brought it really into popularity for, the upper classes the royalty to be drinking champagne. The other attraction, totally irrelevant, or maybe extremely [00:20:00] irrelevant to this podcast because obviously I've done some soul gazing, re listening to it.

at some point we said that I was similar to April Ludgate from Parts and Rhett. April Ludgate played by Aubrey Plaza. And after listening to the podcast, I think this is objectively wrong because I'm like a very excitable earnest nerd, and I just have some shades of dryness and cruelty, but I'm not.

I'm actually a loser who gets really excited about things, talks quickly, and has been listening to The Music Man non stop for, I don't know, the past three weeks. 

Cole: But okay, anyone who's seen Parks and Rec knows that April Ludgate actually has, got this lovable heart wrapped in this shroud of cynical defenses.

And I like to think that speaking on the journey we've been through together, I think that in episode one. You came with all your April Ludgate cynicism, and I've just melted your Whoa. Melted your steely defenses so that you let your nerd flag fly. 

Lily: Cole, [00:21:00] you're already doing it. You're already meta analyzing.

Here's me thinking that was me from the get go, but you're right. I was shitting on this show day one. and look at me now.

Cole: because , as I recall from listening to Starfleet Savior Complex, I was the nerd who was ready to go hard and be like, this is what Sisko speaking to the prophets has taught me about love and grief and time.

And you were like he talks like a moron and 

Lily: what's up with the way he talks. No. All right. And 

Cole: I've, I've let you know that it's okay to bring in those secondary sources and feel feelings and this is a safe space.

Lily: thank you, Cole, for expanding my horizons. 

Cole: I knew it was all there inside. 

Lily: Alright, so the wine! Please. Well, it's gotta be champagne. And I did spoil that already, but it's champagne. It's our final episode. Can you believe it? We're here. I'm gonna pop it. Final 

Cole: episode of season one. 

Lily: Just so everyone [00:22:00] knows. It went everywhere. Speaking of blowing your load. 

Alright, It's a champagne. Ruiner. this is actually the oldest established champagne house which has exclusively been producing champagne since 1729. Obviously champagne has existed for a long time before that.

 .

Lily: it's brew. I B R U T. it's French for dry, raw, or unrefined. the most common style of champagne. And to be brew, it has to be made with less than 12 grams of added sugar per liter.

And that's my factoids about champagne. Champagne. What do you think about it?

Cole: What do I think about champagne? I suppose I've, I love a good sparkly. I admit when I'm sipping some champagne or some Prosecco, it doesn't taste like wildly better on my palate. I'm just like, this is another sparkly, but that probably speaks more to my uncultured middle American palate 

Lily: I don't think you'd be alone in feeling that way about champagne. I think a lot of people, their experience with it and we're not going to talk about the [00:23:00] Prosecco thing because champagne is champagne, right? So there is, there are sparkling wines, champagne is made in champagne, which we have talked about in a previous episode.

I mean, It's not, it's 

Cole: might be bottled on course one, but it's made in champagne. Might be bottled on 

Lily: course one. Apparently it's still champagne. It is not. So I think, yeah, people, maybe they haven't even really had Champagne or they've had a glass and, we just get maybe a lot of yeastiness or a lot of bubbles and it's hard to delve into what that actually tastes like. I have a friend who's a Som and we were actually sitting around the table at my birthday this year and we were playing, we were playing the Proust game.

Cole: The Proust game? 

Lily: It's like questions that Proust asked, and so we're going 

Cole: around. I'm sorry. Wait, pause. You're like, I'm just a fun gal. Let me tell you about sitting around with my sommelier friends playing the Proust game. Guys, 

I'd sip champagne and talk about Proust.

Oh God. 

Lily: am one of the 

Cole: podcast? That is some highbrow shit. 

Lily: Tell me about the Proust 

Cole: game. 

Lily: [00:24:00] I can't remember the, the particular question, but the question was like, what's your most lavish habit?

And so we're all talking about different things, Someone was saying clothes or whatever,

Cole: Yours is discussing Star Trek and sipping fine wine.

Lily: It's lavish. but my friend who's a Som, Sophie,

 She said that her most , lavish habit is champagne, you have access to champagnes, right? Because you're not just buying bottles on your own. Cause if you did that, you would bankrupt yourself like immediately. she's gotten to try all these different champagnes and they are wildly different.

And there's this cool thing to do where you can decant champagne which loses the bubbles, which obviously loses the point. But then at the end of it, you get this like really complex wine. So it's like the more you drink, the more you understand that they are All totally different expressions of the grape, different expressions of the terroir, the same things that you have with wine.

It's just that you have to be a fucking bowler to do it. It would be so expensive to try and try all these different champagnes all the time . If anyone wants to bankroll that, like if anyone wants this to be deep space champagne I'm open to it. We [00:25:00] champagnes.

That's cool with me. 

Cole: Anyone? Anyone? Deep space champagne? 

Lily: Crickets. 

 Just 

Cole: give them time. 

Lily: Anyway, enough about Proust. On to this drink. 

Cole: Who said we wouldn't have secondary sources this episode?

Lily: So the wine itself this is from the producers Ruina. the color, it sparkles in chestnuts, yellows, and golds. This is great copy by the way. The notes, First impressions reveal subtle fruity notes of rinette apples and apricots, hints of elderflower and coriander seed add a touch of complexity. Second impressions create room for intense aromas of brioche and biscuit. This is a very common tasting note, brioche and biscuit.

You get that a lot with champagnes. I think sort of to do with the yeastiness and the lees and everything like that. On the palate, sweet notes of golden fruit, plum tarts and ripe Droops. I don't, sorry, I didn't read that before. You have no idea what that means. A ripe, a ripe 

Cole: droop? 

Lily: A ripe droop develops in the mouth.

The palate is [00:26:00] enveloped in Sounds 

Cole: like something a Dowager Countess would say, what a ripe droop droop 

Lily: The palate is enveloped in harmonious and persistent roundness. The finale reveals the distinctive freshness of chardonnay. 

Cole: That sounds wonderful.

Lily: Yeah. Side note the Rhinette apples that you get on the nose it's a particular variety of apple found in the Rhinette. 

Cole: Okay. 

Lily: And that was Louis XV's nickname for Madame de Pompadour. 

Cole: Alright, full circle. 

Lily: It means little queen.

Cole: Rhinette. Yeah, yeah, yeah. and we know what he meant He he was referring to her. 

Lily: To the tiny little apple boobies. Yeah, nebrestuses. So that's, the Cyclical nature of this podcast. 

Cole: Okay. So we discussed A and B plots. A lot of Deep Space Nine episodes have A and B plots. Do you think Deep Space Wine often has A and B plots?

Lily: Absolutely. Yes. Agreed. Ooh, I love where this is going. Okay. 

Cole: I mean,

I think our A plot is often this wanky secondary source analysis [00:27:00] linking the plot to Shakespeare or Proust and 

Lily: the B part is, will they, won't they like, are they going to do it?

Lillian Cole. 

Cole: Exactly. we're the, Odo and Quark of our own podcasts. 

 that love hate dynamic that we thrive off of. 

Lily: but really it's mainly love. 

Cole: So I'm, I'm Jake T. Ornag

Lily: Yeah. Absolutely. 

I think I'm Nog. 

Cole: we've agreed on that before. 

Lily: Unlike Jake and Nog, I think there's so much evolution the series. .

Cole: Yeah, look how far we've already come. You've learned how to read this season, which is really exciting for you. And you've, much like Jaco, you've corrupted me. You've gotten me to indulge in horrible habits, like drinking wine. Later to the night. 

Lily: Do you want to know something though? I thought that I came up With finding the underboob.

Incorrect. That was Mr. Hull's answer. Oh no, I was all over the 

Cole: underboob. Obviously, I was all over that. So like, 

Lily: we really changed that much since the first episode? Like, You claim to have these lofty Earnest appreciation of, the show, but you're all up in [00:28:00] that underboob day one. 

Cole: Well, let's, Let's revisit this at the end of today's episode.

Great. Have Sisko and Kira really evolved? Have Lily and Cole really evolved? These are some of the big a plot questions that we're tackling. 

Lily: Yeah. And the B plot is adultery. 

Cole: Also who's smashable. 

Lily: I think that's my a plot 

Cole: Are Bajorans Smashable? I think that's a key. It's a critical question 

Lily: driving 

Cole: B plot at least to be discussed. To be discussed. Should we 

Lily: jump in?

Cole: Yeah, let's do it. We've opened the champagne and we leave the rest in the hands of the prophets. 

Lily: Yeah. 

All right, let's do it. 

Cole: Here, we go. 

Thanks for watching!

Cole: Well down on the promenade, O'Brien is forcing one of those juicy jumjah sticks onto Keiko. 

Lily: no, the first shot is a closeup of a jumjah stick. 

Cole: Many thick, juicy jumjah sticks, 

Lily: they're thick and juicy and I have.

Immediately so many questions for the prop design team of CS9 , number one being, will you come on this podcast and please talk to [00:29:00] us about anything? Like I will talk about any set piece, any prop, let's go. Let's do it. Yeah. But 

Cole: especially the jump dress digs. 

Lily: What do you think they taste like?

Cole: Okay, so we know that they're made from the sap of the Jumjuh tree. Yeah, 

Lily: it's a natural sweetness

Cole: Not to be confused with the Jub Jub bird which comes up Lewis Carroll's Jabberwocky. 

Lily: The Jabberwocky, yeah, 

Cole: I had to cross reference to make sure. Wait, 

Lily: Jub Jub tree. 

Cole: Tum Tum tree and the Jub Jub bird.

Lily: Oh my gosh. I 

Cole: know. 

Lily: I feel So embarrassed right now. 

Cole: Lily, I'm, gosh, this is awkward. Come on, just go rest yourself by the tum tum tree and come back when you're ready to speak. proper Lewis Carroll again.

Lily: Shit in the box for me go in the box too. 

Cole: I believe it's beware the jubjub bird and shun the vroomious Yeah. But, back to the topic at hand. Made from the sap of the jubjub tree, rich in vitamin C. To me, they taste like molasses. 

Lily: Yeah, okay 

Cole: Yeah. My 

Lily: thought went to like But then I was also like, This is a crazy Star Trek [00:30:00] world. now in my mind they taste like a sweet Earl Grey tea syrup.

Cole: Whoa. 

Lily: Yeah. 

Cole: Okay. 

Lily: Yeah. 

Cole: do you know that really common candy in Mexico? a hard candy. It's really sweet with sort of bitter kick. 

Lily: tamarind! Yes, yes, yes!

Cole: because , in Mexico you can get these hard tamarind candies. 

Lily: And that's what I'm 

Cole: imagining. 

Lily: Yeah, okay, cool.

so you think about this? O'Brien, to me, he's making a bid for connection with Keiko and she's rejecting it. 

Cole: Yeah it's tragic seeing these two and their marital problems playing out before our eyes.

 He's still trying to get her to fall in love with the wonders of Bajoran culture, and she's like, yeah, nah. at breakfast time. Please, too early. 

Lily: but also maybe speaks to her unwillingness to different culture. Don't know.

Cole: And I think that's huge for her 

Lily: Yeah. 

Cole: this episode is her unwillingness to really immerse herself in the culture she's in. You really get like, a couple who's been sent to work for the State Department in a different country. And Keiko is just resisting as [00:31:00] much as possible, trying to buy her McDonald's as much as she can and interact with the locals as little as possible.

That's Keiko right here. 

Lily: Man. 

Cole: Miles is trying to school Keiko on Jamja. Turns out he's been getting quite an education in Bajoran treats from his assistant Nila, who, if you recall, is that pretty young thing who debuted last episode . And coyly warns him, be careful who you share your jumjah with, Miles.

Oooooooooooo! And okay, is this the most explicit dick joke in all of Star Trek canon? 

Lily: Yes. Because Immediately afterward, O'Brien goes whole hog on that stick. And I'm like, this is a family show, Miles O'Brien. 

Cole: How 

Lily: about just like a little lick?

Just, no, straight down the gob. 

Cole: Listeners, if you can think of any other dick jokes in Star Trek that are as blatant as this please write us. Instagram, deep space one underscore podcast. I'm dying to know. 

But they're going for it

Lily: much like O'Brien. They are just going all in, 

Cole: [00:32:00] Full hog on the jumja. so Keiko is on her way to teach class here she is teaching kids about the wormhole.

Jake astutely points out that the uh, wormhole by the station is the first stable wormhole known to exist, which is a pretty big deal. But then who should walk in? Why, the Sydney Opera House. 

Lily: Yes, there it is. With 

Cole: best actress Louise Fletcher attached to it. 

Lily: They're both here 

Cole: in all their greatness.

Lily: Wow. 

Cole: Should we just pause for a moment to appreciate the looks of the Vedic Assembly? How do you feel about this ensemble? 

Lily: I have so many feelings. Of course you do. Number one being that it is. the perfect ensemble for her and her character. Like, It's overly ostentatious.

It's fussy. It's got like pleating. She's got these jangly bells around her neck. The most disconcerting thing. Is that her whole body is covered, so it's like a bit of a Catholicism thing, a bit of like a wimple situation. 

Cole: Definitely wimple like.

Lily: but, there's [00:33:00] cutouts on the ears. And I understand the significance all about the ears with the Bajorans. But it is icky and gross. It feels like, ugh, I don't know, how do you feel about it? 

Cole: I think it's perfect It is overly fussy and ostentatious and heavy. But it evokes Catholic nun enough to maybe Spark some horror story memories of anyone who went to a Catholic school growing up and got, you know, slapped on the back of the hand by sister, Mary Margaret 

Lily: or worse.

Yeah. 

Cole: there's a great quote from costume designer, Robert Blackman, who has been asked, was the Sydney opera house and inspiration for this? He's asked, was that intentional subconscious or a coincidence? Yes. Robert Blackman says yes to all of that.

Lily: Robert Blackman can he be on the podcast? 

Cole: Robert Blackman, let us know whenever you're available. 

Lily: I'm sorry if anything that we said sounded like shit talking. It is truly set in love. 

Cole: If if we have heaped praise [00:34:00] on any cast or crew member, it would be Robert Blackman.

Yes. 

Lily: And I think, if you've ever wanted to feel seen by someone, I think we can say we see you. We 

Cole: really see 

Lily: you. 

Cole: Absolutely. So, Yes, Vedic She's a Bajoran cleric. And even though she flashes Keiko, one of those signature ingratiating smiles, she does not waste a minute pouncing as soon as Keiko calls the wormhole. Artificially constructed.

She says, that is my celestial temple you were talking about. 

Lily: Blasphemy. 

Cole: She says, you are opening the children's minds to blasphemy and I cannot permit it to continue. And the trailer just leaves off of Keiko's exasperated face. The very same face that every poor school teacher makes on parent teacher night, dealing with difficult parents.

And we learned that this episode is presenting this , very obvious topic of the week as you said before, evolution versus creationism in classrooms. and the surface it's one of the most contemporary hot button issues that Star Trek has tackled.

 We're dealing with things that you might debate on The View, 

Lily: [00:35:00] yeah, it's not like the holocaust. It's like, this is, 

Cole: It's what's going on in the classrooms of our youths. going back to Cole in high school.

Lily: Yeah

Cole: My biology teacher had to make this very carefully worded speech about how we are all encouraged to come to our own conclusions about creationism and intelligent design and evolution and how we would not be discussing any of that in the classroom. We would just be looking at the diversity of life on earth 

Lily: yeah. And meanwhile, your Sunday school teacher was trying to send you in there like some evangelical mole to, recruit young minds. 

Cole: Disciples of Vedequin. that was us. Straight up. any more thoughts on that scene?

Lily: Oh, the only thing was that I um, telling off terrible clothes, but that's not that important. Except for that headband she's wearing 

Cole: yeah her real sin is that headband.

Lily: Yep.

Cole: Well, O'Brien's hard at work, and he is just floored to learn that his new assistant, Neela, ain't just young and hot, she's also excellent at her [00:36:00] job.

She doesn't just know her way around a jumjah stick, but a maintenance panel. But, Trouble in Paradise, 

Lily: Oh, 

Cole: one of O'Brien's tools has gone missing! The 

Lily: who stole his EJ seven

Cole: Poor O'Brien is bent out of shape.

because he never misplaces his tools. What do you take him for? He's Miles bloody O'Brien and he keeps his toolkit tidy, damn it. Something that will be repeated at nausea this episode. God bless him. Yes. 

Sisko's office, Keiko is speaking to Commander Sisko about this little flap come up.

Sisko says he's not too surprised and he reminds the audience that the goal from day one was to bring Bajor into the Federation. I mean, the Cardassians. occupied Bajor by force, but Sisko and Starfleet are here to woo Bajor into the Federation.

And doesn't want to ruffle feathers with all this uh, science talk. 

Lily: And I guess, bookends Some questions raised in emissary about I guess we would call it colonialism or assimilation, I don't know if you remember the discussion that.

Sisko and Picard have about what the goal of the [00:37:00] Federation being there is for whether it's to guard a resource or whether it's to assimilate a culture into the Federation. and I think it's that paternalism of the Federation where They look at a culture and they're like um, that culture, I think it's a bit too parochial to be part of us If they're still so backwards with things like currency and religion, like we're still like that. And that's the way they've treated Bajor is like, well, we need we need to see just how enlightened you are, like just how much you've killed your gods and whether you can also be. part of our cool little club, 

Cole: Yeah, well put. It's really sanctimonious and colonialistic, but it's shrouded benign we're here to help you, help you see the light, teach you about science. Yeah. From this vantage point Enlightenment. But yeah that's, that's his whole mission there. And that's a great book, and to remind us what Sisko's actually here for.

He calls Kira in and she explains to them that Vetiquen is from an Orthodox order. She's got some support to become the next Kai, aka the next Pope of the Bajoran religion, [00:38:00] but probably not enough support right now.

 that's, 

And then Kira shocks Sisko and Keiko by saying she's actually on Bedekuin's side. 

Lily: Yeah. 

Cole: Which actually really love and I love how calm she is because this makes Sisko freak out They're like what but but science Keiko's like, but I'm here to teach pure science, and Kira says, look, some might say teaching science without a spiritual context is its own philosophy.

And man, nothing pisses off a bunch of woke scientists more than calling science a philosophy. And it's actually really fun to watch. Keiko is just Keiko's just giving me, like, Manhattan mom energy who's scandalized at the thought that middle American evangelicals exist. 

Lily: Yeah. She's also giving, Richard Dawkins That sort of Oh, 

Cole: absolutely. 

Lily: Yeah. 

Cole: It's quite close minded and quite judgmental that anyone could, interpret the world around them any differently than she does in her purely rational scientific approach. Kira's like, well, okay, maybe we just have two separate schools. And then Sisko's like, how do you suggest we [00:39:00] deal with this?

Which is like, um, she just did. She just gave a pretty practical solution and you just ignored it because it doesn't. 

Lily: For my two cents, it works. If you want your children to learn religious doctrine at a school, send them to a religious school. And then also have the public school that makes sense to me.

I don't know. Is that crazy? But it 

Cole: doesn't work in the Federation's assimilation and indoctrination methods. 

Lily: Oh no, 

Cole: we're agreeing here. We're supposed to be disagreeing, Lily. We're supposed to be having a vibrant debate. 

Lily: Okay, and now talk about a bookend. I loved Kira in this scene.

And proving that people can change. Nana, I thought she nailed this scene. I thought the character had poise and self possession. And the other two were sort of flapping around like, assimilating dum dums. 

Cole: Yeah Like, Jumjahs. 

Lily: jub jubs under a dum dum tree Nana is 

Cole: fantastic.

I we could even say that Kira has been making some progress this season. if you go back to episode one, she's on a very short fuse and she's [00:40:00] enraged. And even having to try to negotiate with these silly Starfleet people. And she's got some composure here and it's really nice to see. props to Nana. Oh yeah, I remember what I was gonna say. So, Robert Hewitt Wolfe has that quote, This episode is about infinite diversity and infinite combinations and not imposing your beliefs on anyone. But I feel like Keiko and Sisko are trying to impose their worldview on the Bajorans and Kiera is the one saying, or there's room for different worldviews on this station.

Ever heard of it? I Think our officers actually have something to learn here. 

Lily: I think you're right, and I think you were right to write into that magazine, and I'm on board. 

Cole: I'm 

Lily: convinced. Yeah. Great. 

Cole: Well, 12 year old call. 

Cole: We'll cut to the Bajoran temple on the station and hello, set watch, how beautiful is this set? 

Lily: Set watch! 

Cole: Oh, this temple is the first time we've seen inside 

Lily: of it, right? The temple? Yeah. 

Cole: And they really pulled out all the stops. you want to have a crack at it? 

Lily: All right. Pans from the busy promenade to a bird's eye [00:41:00] view of the interior of the temple. Vedic wind is at the center, at the front, at the altar. We've got some candle chandeliers from above, candeliers if you will.

There's a theme of these sort of round disks that emit light over the the temple and also gold it's covered in gold and it's very Catholicism.

Cole: Yeah. 

Oh, that in sounds in, in

Lily: cathedrals. 

 Sisko enters, first you hear him, the click of his shoes, and we're still in this bird's eye view he enters and comes towards Vedic Gwyn, and she has her back faced to him as she looks up at the altar.

And it's, uh. hitchcock, Am I right? 

 just the sort of the ominous, the person at the front hearing someone come towards them and not turning around. don't know, it's the suspense. 

Cole: And the bird's eye view. That's pretty Hitchcockian too, isn't it?

Yeah. Also shout out to the statues. Along the walls. They gave me a very um, like a Han Solo freeze from Return of the Jedi. 

Lily: Yeah. 

Cole: But also very beautiful. 

Lily: It's great 

Cole: This is the first meeting [00:42:00] of Sisko and Bedequin, and man, the passive aggressive contest starts immediately. 

Lily: They're both so good at it 

Cole: Sisko's like, if you had told me you were coming, I'd have greeted you sooner. Oof, all right. It's 

Lily: like somebody's mom at Thanksgiving. assume. We don't have that here. 

Cole: Sisko is dripping with like host to mother at Thanksgiving energy. Yes. I would 

Lily: have prepared the bedroom.

Exactly. 

Cole: but Wynne is like, look, that teacher of yours has dishonored the celestial temple. If she does not recant, I cannot be responsible for the consequences. Oof. 

Lily: We got some threats. It's, even really veiled threats.

Cole: what do you make of, they have a brief exchange about Opaka, who they both claim to miss. I certainly miss her too. wynne says that she would do anything to look into the eyes of the prophets. And she said that when she told Apaka that, Apaka told her to go sit in darkness for a day.

And she did it. Yeah, what do you make of that? 

Lily: I mean, It's real chippy, isn't it? Real what? [00:43:00] Chippy. Chip on the shoulder. 

Cole: Wyn's trying to be like, yes, I was taught humility, but actually, you can tell she like, hated Opaka's guts for that moment. She 

Lily: hated it, and she was like, can you believe this fucking bitch made me do this thing?

And I think, I actually think it's sort of drawing attention to, if we're looking at it as a bookend, it draws attention to Sisko's first meeting with Opaka in episode one, Emissary which I don't know if you recall, but he and Opaka meet and she is just openness. And she's clearly no matter what you think about the religion, she is just.

This kind, compassionate, open person. I described her as a nice deli meat lady. Who's like, I remember giving you some salami and if we're drawing a parallel between her and better Gwyn who would never give you salami, Yeah, and also there's a parallel between Opaka grabbing Sisko's ear and and reading his par. And I think in our analysis of that, we decided that Sisko, as much as it was like a bit of a boundary crossed, he was kind of into it, and it was sort of a spiritual moment for both of them.

Definitely. Maybe because it's in the [00:44:00] hands of someone He pulled him out of 

Cole: his comfort zone, but in a good way. 

Lily: Yeah, whereas this, it's clearly crossing a boundary, and it's icky. And she, just grabs it with no preamble. 

Cole: No consent. 

Lily: You assume that her hands are both cold and sharp and clammy.

Cole: Oh, wind hands all over your ears.

Lily: there's just no warmth or understanding. 

 And she's also just such a political animal.

Like everything she's saying is veiled. It's either like an open threat or a veiled threat or,

Cole: I think we talked in Battle Lines how Opaka might have intentionally just removed herself from Bajor because she's just not a political animal and that's the direction the role of Kai was going and she's like, yeah, no, I'm just going to go help some crazies make some peace on this prison planet.

I am not political. 

Lily: And I'm gonna live forever, motherfuckers!

Cole: exactly. She's having a great time. I never remember. They probably, everyone's having, a great time. 

Lily: I reckon it's a utopia by now By 

Cole: now she's done some great work. It only took her like six weeks. Yeah 

Lily: yeah, she had that shit sorted. 

Cole: Because Bajor does become sort of a hellscape in its own politically [00:45:00] calculated way, and she just got the heck out, you can't blame her. 

Lily: Yeah. 

Cole: No, I blame her still. I blame her too. I'm still I'm still mad at Kaia 

Lily: for anyway, it was, it was the will of the prophets. I think we all believe that. 

Cole: hmm, Out Of the temple and back to O'Brien. Freaking out about his lost tool. Back to the struggles of mere mortals, His assistant Neela doesn't see what all the fuss is about. Meanwhile, that tool isn't the only thing that's gone missing. Turns out Lieutenant Akino hasn't reported for duty. Ruh roh. O'Brien and Neela quickly track both of them down, or rather the remains of both of them, melted into a puddle in a power conduit.

Dun. Yeah, it's pretty gross. Miles is with Keiko taking a turbolift onto the promenade and he's telling her the latest about uh, Akino showing up dead. And all right, David Livingston, I see you. Did you catch this amazing shot? It starts with Miles and Keiko in the turbolift. They leave the Turbolift and walk up to the Jumjah stand and this crane shot pulls back [00:46:00] so that the camera was, like, behind the Jumjah stand the entire time.

It like, comes out of the Turbolift in the Jumjah stand. Like, 

Lily: just, 

Cole: well done. 

Lily: Great work. 

Cole: Snaps to you, Mr. Livingston. I don't know how expensive that shot was. I did think, they say there's a lot of money in the banana stand. There's a lot of money going into that jumjah stand. Crane shot.

Yeah. Let me tell ya. Yeah. Yeah. Miles and Keiko are trying to buy a jumjah stick, but they are refused by the jumjah man. Seems the O'Briens are no longer welcome for jumjahs. 

Lily: The man just wants his Jump Jar Stick. Apparently it's really important to him. 

Cole: gotten a little addicted to those juicy Jumjahs. 

Poor Miles grabs the guy by the collar and threatens to shove a Jumjah where the sun don't shine. I don't know if you caught this, but he's legit threatening to like shove Jumjas. Yeah. And he's stopped only by Odo, before things get out of hand.

Lily: Yeah. 

Cole: Seek the prophets, says the bigoted Jumja man. Seek them yourself, huffs Odo. 

Lily: Classic Odo. And he hasn't changed, and [00:47:00] nor would I want him to. No. He's just Never change 

Cole: Odo. 

Lily: is film noir, still, and else is running around doing sci fi, and he's just doing dry, catty asides, like a grizzled detective.

Yeah, 

Lily: moments like that. I'm like, would smash. 

Cole: Ah, going back to smash ability.

Here we are. Great. 

Lily: But Odo, you wouldn't I think we've established you wouldn't. 

Cole: No, no, no, No. Odo is not smashable in my book. 

Lily: Like ever? For anyone? 

Cole: what do you mean for anyone? can't say if it's imaginable for other people, that's not my, it's my call to make. I don't understand this question. 

Lily: okay, this brings up I guess our rating system. let me start that again. Operating system. Is it based purely on whether you would smash? Or, is it like, more holistic worldview of, is that person smashable? 

Cole: Can there be an objective rating of smashability?

Lily: Yeah. 

Cole: Let's try it on Neela. Is Neela smashable? 

Lily: Yeah. [00:48:00] 

Cole: I think she's, she's such a babe. She is so cute. She She keeps it 

Lily: toit. Yep. 

Cole: She keeps it tight. Although makeup artists, I see you, they gave Neela the smallest wrinkles on her nose because they're trying to make her as smashable as possible.

Even the makeup artists, they know Bajorans are not smashable. 

Lily: And they also know that like, the subtext is that O'Brien wants to smash her, right? 

Cole: definitely 

Cole: We see it, Keiko sees it 

Lily: Everyone sees it. And Keiko is not like totally threatened, but she's like, yeah, okay, it's fine.

You've got your little wet crash, whatever. We all have that sometimes and I think O'Brien, he is conservative, so he's not gonna, want some real RGGI, slightly masculine presenting Kira style Bajoran woman. He wants human looking, femme presenting woman, which is what Neely is.

He wants a femme, 

Cole: puts on that lipstick before coming to work. 

Lily: is, but the thing is Cole you would not actually have sex with this character, would you? 

Cole: look, I find Odo entirely too gelatinous for my liking . 

Lily: I feel like that works for me [00:49:00] somehow.

Cole: At least we agree on Neela. agree on some things. Um, Where were we? Jumjallus, the O'Briens, then find a crowd outside the school. And Vedek Wynne preaching the teachings of the prophets. And she, she says hello. Another amazing Vedek Wynne line, she says, I feel your anger toward me, and I forgive you for it. 

Lily: Oh, pass egg! 

Cole: We love it. And it's a 

Lily: classic I'm sorry you feel that way.

Cole: I'm sorry you feel that way. Exactly. Wynne makes this big show of trying to compromise, saying, Why don't you just not mention the wormhole at all? she says, is there any room for the prophets in your classroom? And Keiko just says, Nope. Which is, again, Keiko, try harder because that is a terrible gotcha moment.

Keiko has basically just said there's no room for the prophets in your classroom. That's not a good look. more than half your classroom is. religious Bajorans, you need to acknowledge your students and their culture

But yeah, she's really putting her sanctimonious science first [00:50:00] philosophy stubbornly front and foremost. , she's stubbornly sticking to it. 

Lily: Headband's on too tight. She's just like, ah, 

Cole: I want to release her from that headband and just let her relax but Vedic Wynn stages a walkout all the Bajoran parents and children.

All storm off together, leaving just poor little Jake and a handful of non Bajoran kids left in Keiko to teach. 

Lily: And this is when I dive into the music man. No, I'm not going to do it. 

think this is sort of Vedek Wynne's moral panic moment where she collects all the 

Cole: parents. Oh, we got trouble. 

Lily: We got trouble. Yeah. Right here in River City. 

Cole: that's exactly what she's doing. 

Lily: That stands for pool. 

Cole: But instead of trying to sell trombones, she's trying to sell her orthodox order. 

Lily: She's trying to sell herself.

Cole: Yes, exactly. But 

Lily: we'll find out later 

Cole: Exactly. 

Lily: Gotta figure out a way to keep the young ones moral after school, alright? Or in school

Cole: I can't believe you were about to not drop The Music Man. Come on. That had to off course as a place for The Music Man in [00:51:00] this discussion.

It can't be completely devoid of any secondary sources. 

Lily: just not. Very Aubrey Plaza of me, that's all. And I question who I am at this point. 

Cole: Okay, Aubrey Plaza definitely hates The Music Man I'm with you there.

Lily: Who are 

Cole: you're not Aubrey Plaza, we all know that. Agreed. Yeah. Agreed. Up in Ops, Director David Livingston treats us to a No 

Lily: segway! 

Cole: No. Uh, Director David Livingston treats us to a very generous close up of the ceiling fixture, the ceiling light.

Ooh! Let me see. 

Like for no good, Mr. Livingston, please let me know what you're thinking was here, but it just starts with his extreme closeup of the light hovering over ops. And then it pans down to our officers standing around the table in the middle. And I think he was just bored and wanted to do something cool.

And I'm here for it. It's a pretty cool light that we've never seen before. The crew's trying to suss out. 

Lily: Nah, I got a theory. 

Cole: hit me. 

Lily: Alright, Here's my theory. Uh huh. Did you notice the main motif in the [00:52:00] temple on Deep Space Nine? 

Cole: Glowing orbs of light. 

Lily: The circles, the glowing orbs of light. So is this the like, temple to secularism of like, science on DS9? 

Cole: Oh my gosh, the brain's trust, the think tank working under the light of Ops.

Lily I want to wash your feet. Beautiful. 

Lily: You know I hate feet how dare you, but, I'm Jesus, I get it, 

Cole: yeah, 

Lily: get in the box, Cole Cole, 

Cole: get in the Wow, So, Our crew is working under the light, trying to suss out how poor Lieutenant Akino died. But guess what O'Brien's really dwelling on? He's bent out of shape because Akino borrowed his tool without asking. Not cool, Akino. Someone 

Lily: touched my thing. Someone touched my thing. Akino, so you're dead, but come on.

Cole: . O'Brien says, look, if Aquino took my wrench without asking, he got what he deserved.

 Oh, no, wait, he didn't say that, but he's thinking it. 

Lily: He's thinking it. Yeah. He's like, that that guy, disgusting. 

Cole: What a [00:53:00] piece of trash. What a tool. I'm glad he 

Lily: melted into goo in that conduit. 

Cole: Yeah, 

And then Jake pops in. to interrupt and think this is maybe my favorite scene of the episode.

I think it's a really great exchange. He's telling Sisko that Keiko was not cowed into canceling classes, but instead she taught the five remaining kids about Galileo and how he was tried and convicted for teaching that the earth orbits around the sun. And Jake is like, can you believe what these people did to Galileo?

How could anyone be so stupid? And he's like, all the celestial temple stuff is dumb. And his dad's like, look, it is easy to look back hundreds of years later and judge what's right or wrong. Once we've got this smug superiority of greater knowledge and awareness. Right. and he handles it way better, I think, than KO's handling it. Yeah. And he proves why he's the right person for this post. Yeah. He says, the one thing that allowed the Bajans to survive over 50 years of Kardashian occupation was their faith the prophets and their faith was the source of hope and courage. 

He even [00:54:00] says that it's really just a matter of perspective. Okay, so wormhole aliens who don't have a concept of time and can see. Past and future. Yeah, it sounds like prophets to me. I like this because it's, first of all, everything's a matter of perspective.

It's a matter of language. But he's also seeing the ways that science and culture meet and how we all make sense of science through the lens of culture. . It even got me thinking, even if you're not religious, if you don't subscribe to a particular religion nature has a way of igniting the spiritual in us. Think about when we look at a beautiful sunrise or we stare into a starry night sky.

stirs things we don't have language for. 

Lily: Or things like the golden ratio seeing, , I feel like stuff like that makes pretty good argument for intelligent design. Even though, I don't know, our brains are pattern making machines, it's kind of like, but how does this thing just keep recurring in nature?

Cole: Yeah. And there's this, wonder about things we don't understand. . 

Lily: Yeah. And I think I brought up Richard Dawkins, and it's this idea that using science as sort of a full stop on [00:55:00] the answer to things, whereas science actually doesn't exist like that.

Sciences is constantly evolving. Discipline. So it, the idea of science is this is what we know so far. 

Cole: yep. 

Lily: These are the conclusions we've drawn. That is not to say these conclusions will not change. And I think when people start using science as a like, this is the answer, the end, no more questions, , it becomes another form of religion.

It becomes a strict doctrine or ideology.

Cole: Totally.

Lily: Yeah. and I think what Sisko does with Jake is he poses a thought experiment to him and he says, why shouldn't aliens be considered prophets? Like maybe both can be true.

And I think this, to me it bookends some things with Sisko . Because I think that the first episode, he doesn't know what Akai is. He doesn't know anything about the Bajoran religion.

He has this kind of incredible spiritual experience and you can't really call it anything else. Like, Yes, they're wormhole aliens, but he has epiphanies about himself and where he is at that point in his life and, living in the grief of his wife's [00:56:00] death and living in the past and, what it is to exist and be alive.

And I think as much as he's asking Jake, this thought experiment, why shouldn't aliens be considered prophets? And he's also kind of asking himself that why shouldn't they be considered prophets? For 

Cole: sure. 

Lily: yeah, so it's both an intellectual and a spiritual exercise for him and I think it calls back to that.

Um, And on a personal note of bookends, this is a lovely tender scene between father and son. I, 

loved the way Avery Brooks treats his son. He holds his hand and it's tender and beautiful and I look back at myself in season one. Making light of their relationship and I can't, I just can't even believe who I was.

I can't even believe I, just disparaged their relationship so much when I can be at the end of this season and think, God, this is the most touching episode. there's something about Sisko's relationship with his son. That lets him tap into this side of himself that is compassionate and caring and open minded [00:57:00] and has theory of mind. that relationship with Jake really brings it out in him, but also he's just, this loving single father. And I look back on episode one, Lily, and I think, who was that person, 

Cole: The profits forgive.

Yeah. This is hope for all of us. 

 sisko suddenly struck me he reminded me a lot of Barack Obama. He was channeling some serious Barack Obama here.

Lily: Or Barack Obama was channeling some serious Sisko. Look at the timeline, mate. You know what, I got my chronology wrong. We do know 

Cole: Obama's a Star Trek fan. He was channeling some Sisko. 

Lily: Do we need to go to Barack Obama's speeches? 

Cole: Yeah. So, okay. I actually thought about this a little bit. like Obama. He had this really beautiful generosity in validating different opinions, acknowledging the validity of opinions across the aisle. And he, okay, he got in big trouble for one quote, but I'm going to read the full quote. Right. If you follow American politics, you'll recognize the phrase that got pulled out of this.

But here he is talking. He says You go into some of these small towns in [00:58:00] Pennsylvania or in the Midwest and the jobs have been gone now for 25 years and nothing's replaced them and over all these different administrations nothing's happened.

So it's not surprising that they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion, or antipathy to people who aren't like them, or anti immigrant sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations.

Lily: That went down well. 

Cole: It did not go down well, but he was trying to say I mean, it actually sounds just like what Sisko's saying.

 For decades, people had, a rough they lost faith in the authorities. And so they fell back on what they know and what they understand and what gives them strength, including their religion. So that's what the poor guy meant. Yeah. And that's what Sisko acknowledges too. And a 

Lily: forecasting for electing someone like say Trump 

Cole: It was forecasting Trumpism as well. Yeah. Who yes, I make some similarities to Sisko and Obama, and I also make some similarities to Trump and a character in this episode. Later on. 

Lily: A bit of a snake oil salesman, 

Cole: Perhaps. You where? I think there's some parallels to be [00:59:00] drawn.

Trouble. They're eating their 

Lily: dogs. 

Cole: Oh, we got trouble . 

Lily: All right let's not. 

Cole: So Sisko knows this is becoming a big problem and he needs to make some allies.

He heads to Bajor. We're treated 

Lily: Oh, what a shame. What a bloody shame. 

Cole: We're treated to beautiful view of the glistening capital city of Bajor. Which, speaking of bookends, we saw in the pilot still in ruins from the occupation.

Yes. And now it's gone through a beautiful restoration. Yeah. To me, it's giving like a combo of Angkor Wat and the Acropolis. It's got these temples rising on the horizon. And then Sisko goes to visit a monastery. and he's in some beautiful garden grounds where he meets Vedic Barayal doing some planting.

Lily: Barayal. And Cole, my first question is. 

Cole: not smashable. Not smashable. Agreed. Great. Great. 

Lily: I love it when we agree, but I want to know your reasons. Thank 

Cole: God. Okay, you know what? I think it's the voice for me. 

Lily: Oh.

Cole: He sounds like a grandpa. There's no charisma.

No [01:00:00] Riz. 

Lily: Shit. There's 

Cole: no, Bajorans, don't have Riz. And he is the epitome of trying to make Bajorans sexy and failing for this viewer. 

Lily: Alright

Cole: It's a no for me.

Lily: got, I got different reasons from you. Cause I, I I would argue a little bit of Riz. Can I tell you why I wouldn't smash? 

Cole: Go on.

Lily: Mainly because it looks like me and Beryl could be a little bit related. 

Um, 

Cole: I, I can't disagree with that. And now that you've said it. I 

Lily: we've got a bit of a brother sister thing going on and I am not into that genetic attraction thing that they claim is a thing. 

Cole: You know, We need to be careful here, because I was surprised to read that Boreal a massive following of fans. there's a huge, like, team Beryl,

Lily: Like the actor or the character.

Cole: Both. There was a strong faction of DS9 viewers who just love this guy. And if you're listening, I respect you.

Feel free to write us with your thoughts, but let's take two steps back here. This Vedic wearing the red robes of a monk. Should he even be sexy? are the [01:01:00] producers right to try to make this religious cleric sexy? Or is that just weird? Because I think they want him to be so 

Lily: saying That if I did not look like this man, probably would smash, do you know what I'm saying?

Cole: And I've 

Lily: written here, the original Hot Priest. 

Cole: Yeah. No, definitely. Because I think that's 

Lily: what, they were doing. And I think if his legion of fans is like testament to that, 

Cole: That's exactly what they were doing. Would you smash the Fleabag Hot Priest? 

Lily: Oh yeah. 

Cole: Yeah, that's a note from me.

Lily: You didn't have to tell me. I know that. 

But that guy is, you can't deny the Riz of Hot Priest. 

Cole: He's got Riz. Yeah. Maybe Burial does too. Let's, alright, let's talk about Burial.

Sisqo meets this guy planting some plants and we learn that Boreal's not a normal Vedic, he's a cool Vedic. 

Lily: Yeah, he's a cool 

Cole: priest. He 

Sisqo quickly bond over their shared aversion to having your ears squeezed to read your pah. Again Bajoran religion dips its toes into all these human religions, and the pa is clearly like your chi, your life force.

 And okay, but what religion does this remind you of, Lily? Boreal's [01:02:00] like, yeah, I was five the first time one of the monks grabbed my ear. I misbehaved, so I was his favorite victim. Yikes, they are really going for these religious parallels. Yeah. 

Lily: Shit. cause they agree with each other.

This is like a boundary that you probably just shouldn't walk up to someone and touch them. Like 

It's sort of inappropriate. And regardless of what it is, probably shouldn't touch someone's body without getting permission. But also if it is like the seat of your spiritual power, maybe you shouldn't just go grabbing that either, I 

Cole: mean, I think they probably both agree that, if you consent, having someone feel your power or whatever, it can be pretty powerful, but yeah, consent, it's a new concept on Bajor and Burail is leading the cause. 

Lily: it's true. and then there's a great call back to this later too later in the episode.

Cole: Yes, I know. It's so good. Um, Burail is the leading candidate to be the next Kai, the next spiritual leader. And he's clearly a lot less orthodox than Nguyen. And Sisko has come all this way because he's hoping that Boreal will put in a good word with the Vedic Assembly about this whole school teachings [01:03:00] brouhaha. may be cool, but He's playing the long political game and he's reluctant to seem too cozy with Sisko since it might damage his chances of becoming Kai. 

Lily: Yeah, he kind of explains it like, I could do this one bit of good now, or I could do holistically so much good if I become El Popey Pope 

Cole: like, when I'm Kai, then we can talk. and it's, it's very shrewd politicking. 

Lily: there's a great quote Where he says, 

The prophets teach us patience.

And then Sisko says, it appears they also teach you politics. But I think they do. I think that's just all heart priest. That's all Baril 

Cole: and his heart priest Riz. Yeah. 

Lily: Can we talk about the garden metaphor? 

Cole: don't think I can, but you better tell me about it. 

Go on. 

Lily: Okay, . So when you first meet Boreal, he's about to go plant this plant. And it's quite funny, Sisko is trailing after him like a toddler and, Boreal's just swanning about in this cherry red ceremonial kimono which like the more I say it, I'm like, maybe [01:04:00] I would smash. Oh, it's 

Cole: sounding pretty keen. Yeah. That's very red kimono off. 

Lily: something about the way you look. I just love it. I don't know what it is.

Cole: Who does that remind me of? 

Lily: yeah, and then he, Baral sort of talks about how, oh, he never wanted to be in politics, he was just happy being in the Garden, and, that that's where his strengths were lying.

But then, all these people found him quite popular. But if it were up to him, he would be a gardener. and I was just sort of wondering what you think about that? because yeah, clearly they're planting, planting the seed of, uh, 

Cole: they've 

Lily: literally got him holding a plant and then talking about, how what he really wants to be doing is growing things.

Cole: Oh, this is amazing. I think I just dismissed it as, you know, nature good. So put a character you want us to like in nature, but he's also, you know, he's, he's planting nature. He's creating it. he's cultivating it. He's cultivating the future of Bajor. He's not stuck in the past.

 think that's 

Lily: Or maybe like, maybe like both religion and science he's looking at as, as this thing that evolves, as this thing that like [01:05:00] changes and grows that you tend to, 

Cole: Oof, actually love that. Like, talk about a perfect blending of science and faith, planting a garden that sort of miracle of seeing , the first bud, appear above the soil, right? There's that miracle of life, but of course it's also the science of life. Um, so Boral is that beautiful, um, meeting halfway of these two philosophies.

Lily: Now picture some other imagery. Picture, If you will, some modern architecture. Picture the Sydney Opera House. 

Cole: For example? 

Lily: For example. 

Cole: Go on. 

Lily: Well, think about it. It's a structure that's plonked on a harbour. Yes, this is what architecture was about at the time. It wasn't about melding with the environment.

 I mean, you wouldn't call it, brutalism, but it's kind of brutalist. It's, poking out of the environment. it's so man made. It's so just there, never changing. 

Cole: Oh, snap. 

Lily: I think it sort of speaks to what, Vedic wind stands for, which [01:06:00] is, I guess she's looking at this culture that could evolve, could be open hearted, but she's coming in with this strict doctrine and just saying, here it is.

And it's not going to change, there's no room for ambiguity. This is what it is. 

Cole: But, you know, I'm ready to get angry letters from listeners, but I think Wynne and Keiko have more in common than either of them do with Boreal. 

Lily: I think that's what the episode is setting up.

Yeah. 

Cole: That's what both Keiko and Wynne are doing in their own ways. 

Lily: Yeah, but I think that's sort of addressed. Like, God knows the writers do not love Keiko. they're not trying to set her up as a hero of this story. Which is a real 

Cole: shame. I want, I want to love Keiko, but they don't make it easy. 

Lily: I know. What's the actress's name? She's cool. I like her. 

Cole: Yeah. No, Rosalyn Chow. Rosalyn 

Lily: Chow. Yeah. She was in a show that I watched recently called Sweet Tooth and she plays this like, matriarch kind of mob boss and she's scary and cool. Liked it.

Cole: so. Sisko arrives back from Bajor, dejected, only to find that most [01:07:00] Bajoran staff have started not even turning up for work in protest of this school fracas, he's really at his wits end and he's losing patience and he has a pretty intense go at Qi'ra, he's like, where the heck is everyone?

 He, he puts all his cards on the table. He's like, We're not here to protect your borders from Cardassians. That is not why the federation is here. And it's not why I'm here. Um, he says, we're here to build trust, which is code for, we're here to schmooze you until you join the federation.

We're here to colonize you. and in his, loss of patience, he really just admits this to and she is less than impressed with him. What did you think about this, this come to blows that these two have? 

Lily: I guess like, I kind of like the scene because it sort of gets to, to me. the heart, it gets to the meat of what this antagonism has been about from the very beginning. And I kind of, in a way, I kind of like that Sisko is laying it all out. for Kira to see. 

Cole: It's not a good look, but it is honest.

Lily: It's not a great look, but it's sort of, the first time he's sort of been honest with her about what this relationship really means. [01:08:00] And there's been such a tension, like a push and pull between them of him claiming that it's all diplomacy and that it's all, you just need to calm down, madam.

and she's, you know, at times rightly very upset about the way that Bajoran citizens are being treated . you know She got 

Cole: one form of colonialism out only to welcome in, a much more subversive one.

Lily: Subversive, and sneaky, and sophisticated, and maybe malevolent, a bit like a little Vedic we might know. Oof! Ugh! 

Cole: well, Odo and Bashir pop in to break the tension with a troubling update. Lieutenant Aquino was murdered, shot by a phaser, and then stuffed into the power conduit. 

Lily: Shit. 

Cole: What was he doing?

Call all the senior staff. Apparently he 

Lily: was, he was getting murdered. 

Cole: Wait, 

Lily: it's my 

Cole: favorite line of the whole episode. 

Lily: I'm sorry. 

Cole: Oh, 

Lily: You know me, blowing my load early. Alright, go on. Oh my 

Cole: god. My mother listens to this podcast.

Lily: Your mother loves my dirty mouth. Don't even pretend [01:09:00] she doesn't. 

Cole: She, I think she has a complex relationship with it.

Lily: Oh, don't we all. So, 

Cole: all the senior staff are assembled in Sisko's office, and hello, what a beautifully framed shot. You saw this one, right? Mr. Livingston, I know that you did this specifically because it was the season finale. We've got all of Sisko's officers, lined up together as if they're posing for the cover of the DVD set.

Yes. And it really, right, it really projects this idea of a unified team, sort of Avengers assembled. It's like a Mount 

Lily: Rushmore of, Totally. 

Cole: which you know Tensions high. Things are actually not great between all these people, so it's it's a bit of a lie, this unified force, but, They're all lined up together trying to figure out who murdered Lieutenant Aquino.

apparently he had gone to a runabout pad the night he was murdered. Why? What was he doing at a runabout pad at four in the morning? To which Odo says, Lily, Lily? 

Lily: Apparently he was getting [01:10:00] murdered. Classic. 

Cole: He's 

Lily: just like still in the bit. He's always in the bit.

God, I wish I could live my life in the bit as just someone in a film noir living my life. I think you do 

Cole: I think you do pretty great. 

 so O'Brien and his assistant Neela go down to the runabout pad to look for clues.

in frustration, they share a tender moment, musing on why Bajoran, mm, 

Lily: Or sexually charged?

Cole: You be the judge. I think they just have a sweet little conversation on why Bajoran and Starfleet officers don't mix that much. To which Neela says, But Chief, you're not like the others.

You don't put on any airs. You're just nicer. 

Lily: You're not like other girls. You're different. You're special. She loves it. She's like, you're so low maintenance. And he's like, I am. I am low maintenance. I am low maintenance. 

And it it must be so appealing to him because his relationship with Keiko is so much work. Let me tell you, this is why people cheat. Cause it's like long term relationships are work and [01:11:00] if you want to be in a long term relationship, you got to know That it's not gonna be some hot little cutie patootie just telling you that you're like a low maintenance king and you're different from other men.

It's gonna be someone who knows you saying like, just so you know, you're not a special boy. Like you're just like a person and I love you and whatever. 

Cole: So 

Lily: but look, O'Brien's never going to do that. It's so against his moral code.

He would never cheat, but he's thinking about it. 

Cole: I mean, how can you not look at Nila's, uh, Ruby red lips. Certified 

Lily: wood smash. 

Cole: To credit both Neela and O'Brien, do you actually think what she says is correct? She says you're not like the others, you don't put on airs, you're just nicer.

Um, I do think O'Brien doesn't have the sanctimonious, superiority of probably most Starfleet officers. I mean, I think it might be there subconsciously, but he's just there to do his job with the E7 wrench. He's not on this mission to like, Educate the Natives.

EJ7. 

Lily: It's an EJ7, right? Excuse me, is [01:12:00] EJ rhymes with BJ. Don't forget. 

Cole: I do think Neela is acknowledging some, yeah, some lack of pretension with O'Brien, which is maybe why we like him. 

Lily: No, but is it real or is it manipulation? That's the whole thing. 

Cole: I think it's both. I think the best form of manipulation is when it's based in reality and based in truth. 

Lily: Yeah. 

The thing is, he's not a political animal. When he goes and has a Jum Jar stick, it's because he likes it. It's not because he's trying to do something to win favours, you know? I think that's what Neil is picking up on, 

Cole: O'Brien's like, this shit's good. 

Lily: Yeah, 

 sorry, I got, I got the champagne burps, everyone.

I'm talking about. 

Cole: Well, on the promenade, Odo's meeting with Quark. We haven't seen Quark this whole episode, but Odo's summoned his buddy, , hoping he's got some intel on Akino's murder.

just as a shipment full of, some more orthodox Bajorans stream onto the promenade to support Wynne. What are they wearing, 

Lily: Cole? 

Cole: they are matching Wynn's maroon and purple, 

Lily: which I 

Cole: think is a beautiful combination. I mean, they may be [01:13:00] orthodox, but I think they look stunning.

Lily: , Like they love maroon on this show. They do. And I'm all about maroon. if I could wear it, I would. Is it not your color? No, it's an autumnal color, Cole. 

Cole: I can wear maroon. I don't like to brag about it, but facts are facts.. 

Lily: Rude. Alright. 

Cole: Quark watch this shipload full of Orthodox Bajorans stream in and Quark gets very limited time in this episode, but they give him time to like fire some more shots at Orthodox religious people.

. 

Cole: He says, Orthodox, in that case, I'll need twice as many dabo girls.

Lily: Yeah. 

Cole: They are going after the religious fanatics. He 

Lily: was like, religion, hypocrisy, and you know who knows it? the guy who owns the brothel. He knows about all the weird ear touching 

Cole: the tell alls about male prostitution in the Vatican, just off the charts. 

Lily: Yeah. 

You got trouble.

Cole: Oh, we got trouble. All right team, let's finish this recap before we're too drunk to discuss, before the wine takes over completely. 

Lily: We've wound down, too far down. 

Cole: Well, O'Brien pops [01:14:00] in, and tells Odo excitedly that he's found a security bypass module at a different runabout pad. Odo, aka Hercule Perrault, starts to piece it all together. Lieutenant Aquino must have caught the murderer trying to plant this bypass at the first runabout pad, and he got murdered for it.

So then the murderer had to move his plan to a different runabout pad. So apparently someone Wants to steal a runabout, but we don't know why. And why haven't they stolen the runabout yet? These are the questions we're asking when, boom, there's a huge explosion. O'Brien and Odo run to the explosion to see that the classroom has blown up 

Lily: and it looks expensive. 

Cole: Colum and Renee are acting in front of a fireball. this is legit pyrotechnics Odo is holding O'Brien back from lunging into the flames to look for Keiko. 

Lily: Yes. 

Cole: Keiko pops up behind them, safe and sound, and wearing a very nice velvet number, I thought. 

Lily: She's [01:15:00] changed into a much better outfit, But the headband is still on and it's not good. 

Cole: Yeah, no one's perfect, but she's alive, and that's what counts. 

Lily: She's alive, and she's in velvet, And we stand that. 

Cole: Yeah, two pluses. 

So it seems a simple homemade bomb blew up the school. a crowd is clamoring outside as Vedek Wynn arrives. And she's of course terribly concerned about the safety of all involved.

Sisko's there too, and he does not waste a second. Second, blaming her directly for fomenting violence. This man is not in the mood for diplomacy today. I mean, last night, Nguyen tweeted, Big protest at the school tomorrow. Be there, we'll be wild. Totally.

We're going to walk down to the promenade and I'll be there with you. 

Lily: Let's do it. Do it for me. Yeah. 

Cole: Those are some, um, 2021 references to anyone who didn't catch them. 

Lily: I got it. 

Cole: Great. All right and in front of all these onlookers, Sisko calls out Wynne. He's like, you know who you are? You're just a fringe politician who's come to DS9 in some cynical effort to scare up support. [01:16:00] Basically, mocking her crowd sizes is what he's doing. And we love to see it.

and Wynne snaps back. You know what? You're not simply misguided. You want nothing less than to destroy us. You live without a soul. Soul, she says to Sisko. You and your federation exist in a universe of darkness.

And in rebuttal, Sisko makes in a passion speech that feels very much like a summary of season one. He says Starfleet officers and Bajorans on the station have been through quite a lot together. They've had their disagreements. And some damn good fights, he says, looking at Kira, but each time they've come out closer together than ever for it.

Yes. Um, a beautiful summary of, things have progressed. 

Lily: And I think, uh, we've made some parallels between Sisko and Atticus Finch. I would say this is another Atticus Finch moment. like it's a call for decency. It's a call for, knowing that there is a sameness between peoples.

That there is like a humanity that Whatever we want to call it. Let's say [01:17:00] humanity. There's a humanity that connects us. We've agreed 

Cole: that's a good shorthand for lack of a better word. 

Lily: and also a kind of Atticus Finch way, his oration is just splendid. He can work a crowd. And, I think a lot of the showrunners agreed that Avery Brooks in a crowd scene is something like majestic to watch.

We 

Cole: need more of this. Yeah. 

Lily: And you believe it. It's like, God, this guy should run a cult because the way he can express himself, the way he can sort of get people on board with his, ideas about, yeah, reason and decency. and he says like, these people know that we are neither the enemy nor the devil.

Cole: We're 

Lily: just, we're people who are different from you, but we are like chugging along as best we can and trying to understand each other.

Cole: Yeah. Oh, beautiful. 

 he turns to Wynne and says, you won't succeed here. And she says, we'll see. And then what's this? A knowing glance between Vedic Wynne and Neela? 

Lily: And then it all comes together because no one is sexually interested in Miles [01:18:00] O'Brien.

Cole: Except for Bashir, 

Lily: but more on that later. 

Cole: More on that later. 

Lily: Neela, what are you doing? are you doing? What are you doing, girl? Turns out 

Cole: she didn't want O'Brien's Jumjah stick. She just wanted his EJ 7 wrench. 

Lily: tells all this time, am I right? Yeah. Ladies? 

Cole: so, Vedic Berile, the would we, wouldn't we sexy Vedic, messages saying he's on his way to the station. 

Lily: Uh, it's such a good saying. 

Cole: So he's moved by the bombing of the school and he's decided that he's actually ready to give Sisko's approval rating that boost after all. and he's talking to Sisko on the comms in ops. And man, these two, talk about sexual tension. I don't know, but they have these you saw it too.

Lily: Right? 

Cole: Very deep, knowing glances they exchange. 

Lily: Okay. let me, let me, let me unpick this for you. Right. Please. Text. The text. Alright, here's what the text is saying. hey Sisko, um, I got your invitation, [01:19:00] and I, gonna come down and hang out with you, let's go look at the school, and I wanna see DS9, show me around, babe.

Show me 

Cole: around. 

Lily: Subtext is, Subtext Hey mate, I heard what you said and I thought about it and look if I'm gonna be a real gardener I'm gonna grow some things at DS9 I'm gonna help you out because like I think that you're a good guy let's build like a bit of political affiliation and what I'm gonna do is I'm gonna come and try and fix this for you because I can do that because people love me sub subtext 

Cole: Hey, 

Lily: Hey 

Cole: how you doing?

 Can you let me, uh, dock in your port? 

Lily: Yeah. that sub subtext is like 

phew, 

Cole: You say sub subtext, who's the sub? 

Lily: Um, we all know it's Sisko. Duh. Duh. And you also have, Nila is also in the background and she's listening 

Cole: I want to give a shout out to actress Robin Christopher because just her [01:20:00] lurking in this episode is top notch. 

Lily: She lurks in several scenes and she is such a good lurker.

It's so good. 

Cole: Yeah, 

Lily: she is giving film noir too, , 

. And she's got the perfect alibi, which is having a crush on O'Brien for some reason. No one believes it, but like.

Cole: overheard O'Brien and Sisko figure things out. And so she shows up in the temple where Wynne is, to speak clandestinely with her. And man, Wynne is not thrilled to see her. She's like, you should not be here, my child. Nila's like, look, the jig is up. They found out about my escape plan with the runabout.

To which Wynne says, Hmm, yeah, that's too bad, but you're still going to have to go through with the plan. You're, you're still going to go through with it. Revealing her as, as truly evil. Nila's like, I'm gonna die doing this, and Wynne's like, mm hmm, your point being? 

Lily: She's found this, like, true believer to the cause, and was like, you know what I want you to do? Bad stuff. want to live a nice life and serve the Prophets? How about being a martyr instead? 

Cole: Yeah, I want you to be like a suicide bomber, effectively, for [01:21:00] the will of the Prophets.

Wynn says, Ah, but the rewards the Prophets give for our sacrifices will last through eternity. Which I feel like is definitely evoking 72 virgins waiting for you in the afterlife. 

Lily: Yeah, yeah,

Cole: so this, this is a trope I actually don't like in Star Trek, where you've got an episode with a really rich ethical debate, you've got both sides, and then suddenly One side turns out they're fanatical terrorists, and it sort of renders the whole debate moot. listeners, I challenge you to see how many times this comes up in Star Trek, where one side has some pretty valid points, but then, oh, they're terrorists, 

it happens a lot. No, 

Lily: No, but I disagree with, I disagree with you just to, shock the listeners and I'm disagreeing with Cole. You're saying it's one sided, but, think about some characters who have integrity in this episode and they're both Bajoran, you know, spiritualists.

We've got Kira and we've got Vedic Barail and they are acting, with purpose, with integrity. They're not bombing anyone. [01:22:00] I think. that as much as you're looking at the two sides, yes, there are the fanatics who are going to bomb the place or whatever, but then there's also the middle ground of people who are representing the religion, being respectful of other cultures and trying to foster peace. it could have easily been Keiko or O'Brien. Like, O'Brien could have been like, punching out Bajorans, on the promenade. Like, he was about to punch some Bajorans, but he wouldn't give them a Jum Jar stick. 

Cole: Yeah.

No, I think that's a great point.

we almost got violence from the other side. 

Lily: yeah, I think that you're looking at it as this binary, but I, think the nuance is there already with, 

Cole: yeah, I think I'm just annoyed. There are, there are a lot of episodes where. You think someone has a good point, but then it turns out they're a terrorist?

it happens more than once on Star Trek. You're right, this episode is more nuanced. 

Lily: Write a letter to your local magazine, your local subject magazine, 

Cole: She mocks me. 

Lily: I never mock you I love you. 

And then I say things. Alright, go [01:23:00] on. 

Cole: Barayl arrives on the station to a rapturous crowd. And, um, did you see who's at the very front of the crowd, thrilled to greet Barayl?

It's Morn. Is it Morn? 

Lily: Yes! Do you know what I almost said about this episode? Where the fuck is Morn? And I missed it! He's here! Of course he loves Baral. 

Cole: Of course he's a huge fan of Sexy Vedic 

Lily: Of course he's a Boralphile, what I'm calling it. Ayo, 

Cole: Baralphile, yes! this is also, I think this is actually my favorite shot.

of the whole episode. it starts at this wide angle overhead of Brile emerging from the airlock. And then it backs up into an extreme closeup of this toolkit that Neela is holding. 

Lily: Yes. 

Cole: And this is what made me think Hitchcock.

 Because Hitchcock is obsessed with, these MacGuffins, these props that the entire plot revolves around. And so you have this huge crowd scene pulling back to reveal clearly some weapon inside Neela's case that could ruin this entire scene. [01:24:00] So Barail walks to meet Wyn at the temple, who instantly reaches for his ear in this power move to try to grab his ear, and he bats it away.

Isn't that an amazing moment? 

Lily: But he doesn't bat it away, he grabs it and then holds her hand next to his in like a show of solidarity. he's like, not only am I , stopping your power grab, I'm trying to say we're a united front because we're all part of the same religion.

And she's just like, she's so mad, like gripping onto his hand, , it's like, So good! 

Cole: Barail gets my vote. 

Lily: Yeah, he's hot in that moment.

Cole: Wood smash in that moment. That is the sexiest Barail moment. Am I a Barailphile? oh god. 

Lily: I'm a Barailphile. Call me incestuous, but here we are.

Cole: So he invites her to walk together to the ruins of the school room in a show of unity against violence. And she grudgingly seems to accept. Meanwhile, O'Brien has dug up some encrypted files. to find that they are security overrides of force fields [01:25:00] apparently charting an escape route from the promenade to the runabout pad, and that leads O'Brien to a device that is apparently disabling the weapons detectors on the promenade.

And this is coming from a unit that he had just repaired with Neela two days ago. Oh no, the pieces are falling into place. 

Lily: the moment that O'Brien realizes all signs point to Neela.

 It's like his little adulterous heart breaks. 

Cole: Yeah. He's like, 

Lily: oh, she didn't want to sleep with me. She was using me that whole time. She was using me. She was just into me for my conduits and my EJ7, and not even in a good way. Like, she was all, jam jar sticks, that, EJ7's this, and no. I was a tool.

Cole: A tool for your tool. 

. Ugh, I am so drunk. 

O'Brien contact Sisko, who's in the crowd on the promenade, says, um, I think we're in big trouble with Neela. Sisko's eyes dart through the crowd, he spots Neela approaching, and uh oh, things are getting so intense they slip into slow motion. 

Lily: Slow mo! [01:26:00] Have we had that? 

Is this the first time in the series?

Cole: Yeah, and I'm gonna go out on a limb and say I don't like it. It's 

Lily: um, melodramatic. But, like, they're proving a point, I guess. 

Cole: So,

so Slowmo Nila pulling a phaser from her toolkit. 

 She's aiming it right at Barail. Sisko, Slow Mo yells, Nooooooo! And dives at Neela. 

 Okay, I get Sisko taking the bullet for Brile, but I think I would have preferred O'Brien finding Neela and tackling Neela. 

Lily: No, I think Sisko had to do it. Sisko has to prove that he gives a shit about Bajorans, you know, that's sort of the whole point of this season.

Cole: But he slo mo dives, Neela's shot goes astray, and Beryl is saved. Yeah, women don't know how to aim. I think that's really her problem.

Or drive, 

Lily: remember, right? 

Cole: Would she have even known how to fly that runabout? 

Lily: She would have just reversed it somewhere or something. 

like, women in STEM does not mean good assassin

Cole: It's fun when you and I get drunk, we just get randomly sexist for no good reason.

Lily: I [01:27:00] love to cosplay as a sex man, it's my favourite bit 

Cole: but in the resulting melee, 

Lily: Sorry, yeah, the melee.

Tell me about the melee. 

Cole: There's a resulting melee, chaos ensues, and 

it's Kira's turn Just quickly. 

Lily: I love that you're like, Lily, Proust, and Champagne, and then you're like, next sentence, Melee.

Where do you draw the line, Cole? Where is that line for you? 

Cole: Just because I love a good synonym, in the resulting fracas, in the resulting, 

Lily: Ka fuffle! Yeah, 

Cole: There is much ado on the promenade, Kira's turn to see if Etik win for what she is. She goes up and she grabs Nguyen by the arm and says, It was all to get him here, wasn't it?

The school, the protest, the bombing. You knew that would get him out of the monastery. You did it all to kill him, to stop him from becoming Kai. And wow, my big takeaway is, That monastery [01:28:00] must have incredible security. Am I right? 

Lily: Yes. 

Cole: Like, to set up this entire political scandal, plant a bomb, hope that it'll lure Beryl to the station, have an engineer rewire an entire space station security for a getaway, that is some next level conniving.

She could have just fucking poisoned the dude's, monastery wine. 

Lily: So interesting. I hadn't thought about it from that perspective. I was more thinking that she sort of wanted to garner some, like, positive public sentiment at the same time. it's kind of the Trumpian thing of, like, no press is bad press.

I would just be in the headlines. It's like, well, there was a big spectacle. it was a big, brouhaha and everyone saw her kind of thing. like, she doesn't want to be in the sidelines. She wants to be front and center of every That's a good call.

And she 

Cole: probably had some speech ready to make, standing at Boreal's body. she was ready to seize the mantle. and get in the spotlight. And she would, she would be all like, 

Lily: I loved Boreal. 

 And that's why I should be Kai. 

Cole: exactly. you're demonstrating more, you are demonstrating [01:29:00] more political acumen than me. thinking three steps ahead. 

Lily: And, here's the thing. If she hadn't done the assassination attempt, she had Qi'ra in the pocket.

I had forgotten. Isn't that 

Cole: crazy? 

Lily: revisionist history'd the whole Qi'ra originally being into Berdick 

Cole: Sure. 

Lily: all I remember of this series is that Kira hates Fedequen, but originally she was on side, and if she hadn't enacted like horrible violence and manipulation , then she would have had Kira, and Kira has the ear of the Federation, you know?

it goes to show, if you want to be a good cult leader, don't do that. 

Cole: Well, heart breaks a little for Kira. we cut , to her in ops after all this has gone over and she's just looking despondent.

I mean, it's sad to see her let down by a spiritual leader Sisko said, that she had during her occupation was her faith. And now that's taken quite a hit and she's more jaded than ever. Sisko shows up and he says, are you okay? Kira's like, I've forgotten, okay.

Okay. I don't even know what that is. I love that line. 

Lily: I'm gonna use it. 

Cole: I've forgotten [01:30:00] okay. great. Yeah. but, Kira, she strikes a truly conciliatory tone.

That's right, I said the word conciliatory. 

Lily: Conciliatory. 

Cole: she says, hey, I heard you make that speech earlier on the promenade, you're right, I don't think you're the devil. And, That, my friends, is progress. they both grin because they realize how truly low the bar is, but uh, hey, that's life on Deep Space Nine.

Lily: I think you have to look at the context of who Kira is as a character, rather than who might say that on a whim. I think that she's very guarded. I think that trust does not come easily to her. I think loyalty does not come easily to And what she's basically giving him is trust and a little bit of loyalty.

And those things are like, the greatest currency you can have with someone like Kira. So what she's saying sounds like a small concession, but it's huge for her. so I think as much as we can say, you know, Sisko says to her, maybe we have made some progress after all. I think it's actually so much progress.

I think that's a huge thing for her. 

Cole: [01:31:00] Yep. Yep. Yep.

Well, I. hung up on a more important question. 

Lily: Would I smash Kira At the end of this season as opposed to the beginning. 

Lily: no. 

Cole: Yeah. I think she'd bring a little too much, um, intensity to the bedroom, 

Lily: I think she's too self serious for me. I don't think I could sleep with anyone so self serious. 

Cole: Yep.

okay, and Sisko? we haven't really talked about Sisko's smashability. I think we've had enough wine at this point that it needs to be discussed. 

Lily: I love that, I started the question with, who are we? Kira Sisko? And now you Cole Paulson are asking me, Would I smash Kira or Sisko?

And I didn't even ask that question It's like I've entered your brain. 

Cole: , no, no, can I make a correction this is all on record. I said, there's an important question. And you said, would I smash Kira? My question was going to be who's Sisko and who's Kira, but you preempted that. That's exactly what the question was going to be.

Oh 

Lily: my God. I am a cult leader. I have made you ask [01:32:00] these questions that you were never going to ask. should do it. I want to be rich, man. 

Cole: But back to the issue at hand, Sisko 

Lily: beginning of this season? the beginning of the book? No. End of the book? The book end? Yes.

Cole: Okay. 

Lily: Wood. 

Cole: You? Uh. He needs to lose that hair. That's all I'm saying. 

Lily: You are so superficial, Cole. You make me sad. Put a wig on it! 

Thanks for watching!

Lily: All right. All right. Let's get a bit more meta, shall we? Let's move on from these broader themes. 

Cole: Ready.

Lily: Another question. Cole, have we made some progress after all? 

Cole: You were mean, baby. 

Lily: Do think? 

Cole: think I've brought you on board to Team Sisko. That was a big accomplishment of mine. 

Lily: That was huge. Like Sisko is amazing and Avery Brooks is amazing and I quickly came on board with that Once you told me I was wrong. 

Cole: I brought you on board and you, you surpassed me because I'm still willing [01:33:00] to say that we don't need Shakespearean diction for every sentence he utters out of his mouth.

part of me wants him to just like reign it in a little bit. 

Lily: I am like O'Brien on that jumjastic. I am whole hog. I am just like, 

Cole: Full throated acceptance. 

Lily: Yes. That's true. Avery Brooks, there is no choice you could make that I question now just like, you've got a reason and I will find it.

Cole: Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. 

Lily: Okay. My next question. so like something I noticed from our first episode is something you brought up. you're very genuine in your love of Star Trek, which I adore. We both adore that. And I think it's very like, 

Cole: no, 

Lily: but I'm like, I'm being serious now. it's a very, kind of peaceful and innocent place that you come from and you can watch Star Trek and, embody this childhood of yours.

And it's sort of this thing that existed before you, saw what the world was and felt jaded about things. Um, and that's another quality I love in you, that you retain this kind of hopefulness about the world. and I do [01:34:00] think it's something from the first episode , you are quite starry eyed about the show and , you, you know, we're just starting out.

 Is that how you feel now after having watched the first season? 

Cole: Our deep dive analysis of the first season has also coincided with a pretty sobering year in planet Earth and geopolitics of planet Earth. And, it's interesting because our close reading has helped me see some problematic attitudes and behavior from the Federation that I don't think I'd really clocked I'm seeing this sort of benign colonialism and their At the same time as I've seen the Western world really fail in some very big ways. 

And, it's just made me ready to. Uh, question everything, 12 year old Cole still, Really embraces embraces the values of Star Trek, but I'm also able to see that even Star Trek, in all its, open eyed optimism gets things wrong. And. I guess I'm just adult enough now to see [01:35:00] that, even the most, idealistic interpretations of humanity still have a long way to go in like learning about it. we still have so much more to learn. 

And I, I'm seeing the shortcomings of Star Trek is my drunken honest answer. 

Lily: I agree that there are some terrible things that have happened in 2024, 

But name a year in the history of humanity where there hasn't been something that, that makes a person question humanity, that makes a person question, I don't know whether we're on the trajectory towards enlightenment.

 And I think that maybe what we've established in this TV show is, the cyclical nature of history, that you can look at any point, I mean, pick a year and you can, you can find an atrocity. maybe some bigger than others, obviously, , you know, it is a matter of perspective. And I think, this is something that sci fi show is teaching us in a way that, the legacy of history is long and it's grand and it is cyclical. And we're going to see these atrocities repeat or we're going to see, [01:36:00] religious or political leaders, recruiting based on the worst of our fears, based on our bigotry, based on our, I don't know, our basest desires, based on the horror, the horror, 

Cole: For sure. You know, Martin Luther King, the arc of history.

bends towards justice. I think I might've paraphrased. but also with the cyclical nature, I suppose if I were to diagram it, it'd be like this it'd be a ball spinning forward. And so even as history is repeating, it's still going forward. And I do still believe that.

I think even with each backswing, we're gearing towards more of a future swing. You know, me and 12 year old Cole still think we're going towards, a brighter future. even the way we, regard each other, like the 20th century, , we've got such a better vocabulary on human rights because of the horrors of the 20th century.

and I think the same will come out of 2024. I guess I'm just aware that, you know, Star Trek Deep Space Nine was written in the nineties when we were still figuring things out 

Lily: But we still are! , 

Cole: but we're still figuring things out. But we'll never 

Lily: stop, we'll never stop figuring things out and even a sci [01:37:00] fi show is telling us You can reach a utopia and then they'll just be some backwater space station where everyone is really just trying to still figure things out.

And maybe the people who claim they've figured things out are just some people in a higher tower who aren't experiencing what's actually going on. 

Cole: That's it. So immediately after the 2024 elections, my friend Alex and I were talking about, how in, the Star Trek timeline, III, happens before anything good.

And, um, ended up watching, Star Trek First Contact as a sort of balm after the results of the 2024 elections. and it's a reminder that things Yeah, probably likely get much, much worse before they can move on to better and that's just the cyclical nature of history. So bring on World War Three and then bring on the Vulcans and their happy tidings.

Lily: Do you know what? I'm gonna quote again Cole from Episode one of Deep Space One. He said that ultimately Star Trek, if you watch it, is kind of like a [01:38:00] chicken soup for the little nerd soul.

So when you are sick, when you feel bad, this is what you reach for. And he also said that, he used it as a balm for the 2016 election. I don't even remember saying that, You look to Star Trek and you found something to gain from it, about the hope of humanity. And I think that's important.

I might be dated and, crusty on my core and claim that I'm watching it because it's boring, it makes me fall asleep, or like, it's just a comfort watch. But I think I'm watching it for the same reasons too. I think that I feel afraid all the time. Um. all the time. And is it so surprising that I go and watch Star Trek, to feel better about the world?

I don't think so. Yeah. I think that we have that in common. I think that's the main thing we've always had in common that we, look to 

Cole: this 

Lily: thing as like It's not a solution, but it's, it's like a hug, you know? 

Cole: It's just, uh, it's spending time with our better angels. 

Lily: Okay, I'm going to end this with retrospective [01:39:00] analysis of the two texts. 

. 

Lily: The two texts being Season 1 of Deep Space Nine. Of Deep 

Cole: Space Nine, and Season 1 of Deep 

Lily: Space One. 

Cole: Yep. 

Lily: Here we go. 

this is about both of them. You ready?

Cole: ready. Okay. 

Lily: There is some questionable production quality.

Cole: Uh huh, yeah. 

Lily: Um, there's some really tight, well written episodes, right? 

Cole: Absolutely, absolutely. Everyone will 

Lily: agree. There are some very flabby, shambling episodes that seem a bit like a drunk person wrote them. Alamarine, motherfuckers! Alamarine! Glick, Um, perhaps sometimes the show is a little too esoteric for populist tastes.

Cole: Indeed. 

Lily: on that same note, is the show a little bit too self serious sometimes? Maybe? I don't know. 

Cole: And my final Depends depends how much I keep from the last 20 minutes. 

Lily: [01:40:00] Um, the last 20 minutes was beautiful and I cried, so, don't, how dare you. And my last note is Everyone involved arguably is Smashable.

Cole: Oh, that is beautiful. Cheers to that. 

Lily: So that, that's my takeaway. 

Cole: I can't argue with any of that. 

Lily: Cole, do have anything else to say about, our season of DSPACE ONE? 

Cole: How could I, after that coda? I guess I just think that, much like how Kira and Sisko realize that their friendship is only just getting started 

Lily: Yes.

Cole: This is only the beginning. 

Lily: I agree. 

Cole: Great. 

We do want to hear from all of you listening, Yeah, how can they reach out to us? we've got a pretty active Instagram deep space wine underscore podcast. Yes, and uh, let us know let us know what you want to hear more of let us know if you egregiously disagree with anything We've said here . Maybe [01:41:00] you want to speak up for Keiko. Maybe you want to speak up for Vedekwin. 

 Maybe 

Lily: you wanna speak up for KACO's headband? We think you're wrong, but convince us, you know, we'll 

Cole: politely tell you you're wrong, but you know, face, I'll tell you to your platform. 

Lily: Yeah. We're, we're thinking about taking a brief hiatus. we're thinking about a bonus episode, to do with some FAQs.

about the season, of Deep Space Nine. FAQs. 

Cole: Frequently asked. 

Lily: Frequently. Everyone's asking me, you know, 

Lily: All right. Let's sign off, shall we? 

Cole: All right, thanks everyone. Bye everyone. It's been wonderful. Yeah, thank you. 

Bye. 

Lily: Bye. 

Cole: Bye. 

Lily: Love you, bye.