Sound and Fury: DRAMATIS PERSONAE (1.17)

Is this unhinged tale of intrigue, betrayal and horology giving more Shakespeare or soap opera? We say both, and all the better for it. And though there's plenty of camp silliness on the surface, naturally Lily and Cole dive deep. Cole sees the 'play within the play' setup as a revealing metaphor for television acting, using it to interpret what each DS9 cast member brings to his or her respective character. Meanwhile, Lily teaches Cole that the sci-fi conceit driving the episode's plot actually isn’t so far-fetched, connecting it to the concept of social contagion and mass psychogenic illness, mass hysteria, and groupthink. Oh, and not to be outdone by the drama onscreen, Lily also gifts us with a Shakespeare reading. Fasten your seatbelts, once more unto the breach -- it's going to be a bumpy night. 

Chapters

• 0:00 Intro: A triple-layer cocktail of goodness
• 21:02 Wine pairing
• 25:59 Episode recap
• 1:23:19 Final thoughts (and Fashion Watch!)

Transcript

Sound and Fury: DRAMATIS PERSONAE (1.17) 

Lily: [00:00:00] I have some questions about Klingon science vessels,,

are the Klingon scientists? Is it victory when A hypothesis is declared, correct, or They're just like, the victory today was that, they cleaned my test tubes. I don't know. I'm not a scientist, clearly. 

Cole: Hey everyone, I'm Cole Paulson. 

Lily: And I'm Lily Rossen. 

Cole: And welcome back to Deep Space Wine, the podcast that attempts to recap and decode every episode of Deep Space Nine, the forgotten stepchild of the Star Trek universe.

Each episode, we share a bottle of wine, wind down, and then wind ourselves up again with our strong opinions about DS9. Because in our tried and tested social experience, there is really nothing people love more than when someone talks at length about Star Trek or wine. 

Lily: or whether the search itself is often reward enough. [00:01:00] 

Cole: what the hell are you talking about? 

Lily: What? Is that not what you learned from this episode?

Cole: What search? What are you talking about? 

Lily: you even watch this episode? was just dropping absolute wisdom bombs 

Cole: you. Oh, is that, was that search thing actually a quote from Dax? 

Lily: Yes.

Cole: I'm so sorry. okay, Um, I just thought you were drunk.

You told me you had been pre drinking. 

Lily: I can be drunk and brilliant. I think I've proved that in this, journey we've been on together. 

Cole: think you've proven that over and over again did you have fun with this? Dramatis Personae? 

Lily: I did have fun. I did like it. I liked, all the actors getting sort of play off book a little bit. act outside of their scope, particularly Avery Brooks, let's give him an award for this episode because he was fucking 

Cole: This was a big pile of campy goodness just fun. High camp. and I had a wild ride, especially riding the Avery Brooks Insanity Wave. 

Lily: Oh my god, it's like, did you [00:02:00] think he was the craziest zaddy out there? Um, yes, but this, it just proved it. Did I mention I've been pre gaming?

Did we talk about, should we address that? Yep, we did. 

Cole: You know, you um, addressed it before we started recording, but how about you tell the audience? 

Lily: mean, uh, all right. Hear me out. Hear me out. I am only human. 

All right, so I had this really big event, on Saturday night, for some people and they were just like super rich and they just wanted everything.

So we like did caviar and truffles and oysters and like every expensive food item you can think. My God. They also had the most amazing wine list so there was so much wine and a lot of it was in magnums you know magnum is right it's like it's like the size up it's the size up from normal bottle. 

 And I don't actually know the liters, but it's a lot.

 So then at this event, it was like the wines of my dreams. Such expensive, nice wine. And [00:03:00] then at the end of the event, they'd like opened all these bottles and had like one sip from them. so I got a bottle of Merceau, 2018 Merceau, so this week I've been trying to get through a magnum of Merceau's. Just having a glass here and there. So I finished that off tonight and then I also got You just don't like waste. 

Cole: You don't support waste. 

Lily: I don't support waste of Merceau. I don't support waste of white burgundy.

Someone needs to drink it. So I had a Magnum of Merceau and two bottles of Chablis that I've been trying to get through. and the better part of that I have done tonight. So, this is where we are. 

Cole: you're a saint. You're doing the Lord's work. 

Lily: Thank you. 

 also the we've like squared away a whole bunch of work, so I just, have nothing to do tomorrow or this weekend.

Lily: The only thing I have planned is a kid's party where I'm going roller skating. So. Wait, you, 

And, kids parties these days involve a lot of wine. So, 

Cole: wine and roller skates. That's almost a better combo than [00:04:00] wine and Star Trek.

At least, we'll see. 

Lily: I was saying to Izzy, I was saying to my sister, I was like I'm gonna wear a jumpsuit and she's like you know jumpsuits are really impractical in the ER and I was like oh yeah no good point. 

Lily: I mean, we don't condone, We're not about over drinking on this podcast. No, . Often, I'll do this podcast and have one and a half glasses of wine, because it's so cerebral and you know us.

Cole: Mm 

Lily: cerebral snobs. as they say, what was I gonna say? the journey is, hang on, 

the search itself is often reward enough. 

Cole: Uh, look, I smelled the room and immediately took two shots of vodka just to catch up to you.

Great, 

Lily: It's very Klingon of you. 

Cole: trying to get Glory to your magum. 

Lily: Glory to my magnum indeed. 

Cole: I think you're meeting the episode where it's at. I mean, this is just campy drama, we're talking like high school summer theater camp levels of campy drama, and I think chugging some [00:05:00] wine is right on board with it. 

Lily: Yeah, 

I'm just gonna say I've never chugged wine.

Maybe when I was like 18 

Cole: in high school summer theater camp.

Lily: Sure. I think I've been sipping quickly. That's what I would say. join us sipping quickly. 

Cole: yes. As we, as we talk about this episode. As we quickly sip our wine. 

Lily: So Latin, Dramatis Personae. Personae? Personae. I, 

Cole: I actually asked Chet GPT how to pronounce it, and he told me like three different things. And you know what? Does anyone know, how the Romans pronounced Latin? No, it's a dead 

Lily: language. so we don't know.

Cole: Yeah, , so let's just make it up. Dramatis Personae, you say Dramatis Personae. Let's, let's get drunk. 

Lily: Dramatis Personae, uh, what is, uh, what is, uh, what's it all about? You got it, Simon?

Cole: Uh, I've got a take, do you want to hear my take? I think this episode has layers. 

Lily: Let's go. 

Cole: all right. So at first I thought this is just some superficial silliness, but then I saw Quark preparing that triple layer [00:06:00] cocktail and I realized it was a clue. This episode has layers, specifically three layers Yeah. Okay. So this episode is obviously a satirical treatise about the reality of being a TV actor.

Hear me out. Oh, 

Lily: snap. Yeah. Nah, nah, nah, nah. Yeah. 

Cole: Go on. Yeah. So like if you're a TV actor, week in, week out, you're just given the script and you are a puppet at the whims of the scriptwriters and you have no say what's going to come out of your mouth every week, which is essentially what happens to our dear DS9 crew officers in this episode.

Lily: Yes.

 But, of course we know that it goes both ways, right? beauty of TV acting is that when you get to play a character for weeks and years at a time, you also get 

Lily: to influence 

Cole: how that character is shaped and how it evolves, right? 

Yeah! I mean, much of himself did Patrick Stewart put into Picard? How much Kate Mulgrew is in Janeway? there's even, a very cool example on DS9. I don't know if we're doing spoilers, but there was [00:07:00] a romance on DS9 that only came about because the writers saw that one of the actors acting as if he were in love with the character.

Another character and like that's I mean, I don't want dude's name starts with an O and ends with an O I don't know So it's like this two way street of Yeah, you got to spit out what you're given, but you also get to imbue some of yourself into it. So Layer number two in this complex masterpiece is when these characters do get sort of taken over by this crazy virus how much of themselves are they still putting into the drama that plays out?

Yeah, 

Lily: love it. Love it.

Cole: But, 

, dear Lily, there is a third layer because this is a TV episode played by actors. Yes. So, My second question is, much of the actors are going into the crazy, drummy drama on screen? [00:08:00] Like, how much Avery Brooks are we seeing in the crazy? How much Nana are we seeing in her femme fatale?

I think whenever an episode lets actors sort of play outside the bounds of their character, you know, whenever they get possessed or whatever, it's giving them a chance to have fun. And so how much are they The actors diving in and mixing up this triple layer cocktail of candy goodness. 

Lily: Oh, I love that metaphor.

I love what you did. Can I say I appreciate you? This is not the white burger you're talking about. You are oh, it's just your brain. Sometimes I want to give it a little smooch. but I can't because it's encased inside your skull. Um, yes, I love that. Thanks, babe. play within the play within the play..

The life imitating art imitating art imitating life kiss. and I can say that 

Cole: Yeah, A chef's kiss from a true chef . 

Lily: yeah, yeah, 

Cole: Um, what was your, tell me what you thought about this, this triple air cocktail. Personae, what was your take 

Lily: Um, Hondo, everything he said. and I love the [00:09:00] metaphor of the cocktail even though that cocktail looks like every, like terrible. Shooter you ever got in like a horrible bar by some like bartender with like a nose ring But yes With the blue in top, you know when it's blue, it's never good I know if I drink anything blue, then the night, I don't remember 

it. 

Cole: I thought it was a bad sixth grade science experiment where you're learning about different liquid densities.

Lily: Mmm Densities and viscosity 

Cole: That's it. 

Lily: yeah. So I guess, what I want to talk to you about tonight Cole is um, The idea of social contagion. Have you heard of this term? 

Cole: Whoa. Um, no, I don't think I have. 

Lily: It sounds awful. So it's a bit of a rabbit hole.

I went down with, I guess it's social identity theory in a way. to me, that's kind of what this episode is about. It's sort of a buffet, a buffet, a buffet. That's, um, Phoebe's last name, Phoebe buffet. yeah, it's a buffet of, um, social, psychological concepts in this episode.

And I guess I, I liked what you had to say about, [00:10:00] the characters maybe unconscious or subconscious kind of playing through in, 

um, 

in what happens as well as the actors themselves, which I find really interesting. But yeah, I guess there's a few different, kinds of social contagion I want to talk about.

Basically the concept of social contagion, it. involves behavior, emotions, or conditions spreading spontaneously through a group or a network. And this is a, yeah, this is a concept that's been, studied by social scientists and social psychologists since the late 19th century.

, but it's very contested. It's, wound up in identity politics. I, I 20th century, it's sort of one of the most fraught things that you can kind of talk about. in social psychology.

Cole: Whoa, so you're getting controversial up in here

Lily: You know me, I am a white lady who drinks white wine and I say controversial shit. this podcast I've been listening to recently, um, because we make a podcast, but we also listen to a lot of podcasts. Am I right? 

Cole: We support the industry. 

Lily: We do. and [00:11:00] this is called Hysterical and it's on Wondery. And it looks at one of these social contagion which is mass psychogenic illness.

which I can talk about first, but the three concepts. I want to talk about mass psychogenic illness, moral panic and 

Cole: groupthink. 

Lily: And I feel like you might've heard of moral panic and groupthink. 

Cole: Definitely. 

Lily: Yes. so we'll start with mass psychogenic illness. historically this has been, also labeled mass hysteria, which is a very loaded term.

when you think about the roots of the word hysteria and where that comes from. A little gendered, isn't 

Cole: it? A little misogynist. Very gendered. 

Lily: so the Greek word for, I think the womb is hysteria, hysteria. 

Cole: Because a hysterectomy is getting your womb taken out. 

Lily: Yeah. So I think historically, pretty much up until the 19th century, they believed that, if a woman was going like a bit loopy, it's because she had a wandering womb.

Like her womb was just like wandering around her body. How does a 

Cole: womb wander? What? 

Lily: Well, I mean, it just like 

Cole: packs a, it packs [00:12:00] a go bag and just goes a rambling. 

Lily: It just wanders around and makes her crazy and that's why women be crazy, am I right? Yeah. yeah, I think we have to be skeptical when we look at any kind of, historical and current, kind of ways that we look at women in health. 

Cole: Indeed. And psychological 

Lily: health. but anyway, psychogenic illness or mass hysteria, or what Freud labeled conversion disorder. is basically a physical manifestation of the unconscious, where the body is converting some kind of interiority, whether it be stress or trauma, into physical symptoms. Basically, symptoms erupt that have nothing to do with actual, physiological reasons.

It's to do with something psychological. 

Cole: okay 

Lily: so 

Cole: psychosomatic symptoms, 

Lily: exactly. when you bring into it the mass psychogenic illness, so it basically, spreads, and it's not spreading because people are pretending it's spreading because people are physically feeling these symptoms.

So to have mass psychogenic illness, there's no. organic [00:13:00] basis to it. it's psychological. it's transient. It has a rapid onset. and the occurrence is in a segregated group. 

Cole: What does that mean? A segregated group? 

Lily: So it's basically, within a group that spends time together.

so Like a subculture. it's like subculture, a social group. or people that work together, for example. and yes, the symptoms are spread via sight or oral communication. Okay. Yeah. 

Cole: I mean, it sounds like a, a bad joke that everyone passes around the office except it's hysteria. 

Lily: Yeah.

and , it's not just, paranoia or an idea, it's actual physiological symptoms. 

Cole: Wow. 

Lily: Yeah, so there's all kinds of physiological symptoms. They can be, like symptoms in the gut. It can be ticks. It can be, fainting numbness. There's all kinds of things that develop and there's no biological reason why.

it's happening on this mass scale within a segregated group. so they posit that perhaps the Salem witch trials, so the women were sort of exhibiting these symptoms of things that looked like demonic possession. Um, if anyone knows about Havana [00:14:00] syndrome, Cole? 

Cole: Anyone meaning Cole? 

Lily: Anybody? Anybody? this is in recent American history, but, um, government officials and particularly CIA operatives, working in Cuba, All started developing what looked like some kind of reaction to bio warfare. They all had the same symptoms.

Yeah! And it turned out that actually it was mass psychogenic illness. They were saying it was something to do with a sonic weapon. Wait, was this the thing, like, 

Cole: weird noises coming through, like heat ducts? Yeah, correct. Wait, that was all psychological? There was no 

Lily: What? Psychogenic illness, mass hysteria, yeah.

there are other things like, um, laughter epidemics, so someone can't stop laughing. For days and days at a time, and people within their, social group or within their work or whatever, catch this. 

Cole: I mean that sounds adorable 

Lily: well, yeah, but until you can't stop, until it's physically painful.

Sure. Yeah. 

Cole: Yeah. 

Lily: Nuns, in a convent meowing and and they couldn't stop meowing. I'm 

Cole: sorry. And 

Lily: then 

Cole: what are, what are sources for this? Nuns [00:15:00] all like meowing at each other? 

Lily: Yeah. Yeah. And they couldn't stop and then quite famously in the 2010s, in Leroy in New York, there were a group of teenagers who began to develop tics and Tourette's like symptoms. And this gained a lot of attention because this was when social media was sort of like just becoming really, really huge. And then also people started getting it off of social media. They started seeing it on social media and the symptoms started developing from there.

Um, It's really fascinating. Yeah. So this is my first social contagion. 

Cole: I'm going to be thinking about those meowing nuns for a while. I can't decide if it's really cute or basis for a horror movie. 

Lily: It's a horror movie, obviously. 

Cole: Yeah. 

Lily: A 

Cole: cute horror movie?

Lily: All right. Moral panic. What do you know about moral panic? 

Cole: Okay, so this one I've heard about, there've been times when there's been sort of accusations leveled or someone gets on a soapbox and decries some phenomenon happening among the youths, you know, like those kids playing pool [00:16:00] or, children with their smoke and doobies, you And then everyone freaks out and yeah, decides like the devil is at work And it just spirals out of control and suddenly there's like witch trials and stuff.

Lily: Yeah, I think you've hit 

the nail on the head So 

Cole: great my 

Lily: understanding of moral panic it's a widespread feeling of fear. An evil person or thing threatens the values or interests or well being of a community or society. Yeah, so some examples are the Satanic Panic. you know about the Satanic Panic?

Cole: Remind me, people were convinced that there were like Satan worshippers among them, but it was just completely out of proportion, 

Lily: Yeah. So there was no evidence to support it.

it just sort of got blown out in the media. nobody died from satanic panic. 

Cole: this was in the US in the 80s. 

Lily: late 70s and early 80s, yeah. Um, the Red Scare, that was a moral panic.

Cole: yeah, Red Scare for sure. 

Lily: child abduction.

Some people have called that moral panic as it statistically does not happen. 

Cole: Yep. 

Lily: and when children go missing, it's usually the family. 

Cole: Hmm. 

Lily: Immigration, we call that moral [00:17:00] panic. I am Australian, and I can definitely say that immigration is moral panic in Australia. 

Um, and that, takes me to my next concept, which is groupthink. 

Cole: Hmm. 

Lily: It's a psychological phenomenon that occurs within a group of people in which the desire for harmony or conformity in the group results in an irrational or dysfunctional decision making outcome.

Cohesiveness or the desire for cohesiveness in a group may produce a tendency among its members to agree at all costs. 

Cole: okay. So like all of the sheep jumping over the cliff

Lily: Totally. But I think it sort of goes beyond that. It goes beyond just the idea that you conform with your group no matter what. they call it collective confirmation bias. 

Cole: Okay, so all get convinced that everyone's right and you all make the same decisions because you are in some sort of cultish Unity. 

Lily: Yeah, it's basically like a loss of Independent thinking in a way, I guess it is mindlessness because you're, privileging the group's thoughts above your own. 

Cole: Yeah. It sounds hella 

Lily: Yeah, it is. I think that's probably how groupthink [00:18:00] functions.

So that's it. those are my, those are my things. And you were like, Hey, Lily, You're so drunk you drank a lot of wine, but can you say mass psychogenic illness when you've had so much wine? Yes, I 

Cole: What can't she do ladies and gentlemen? so 

Lily: It's a bit dense.

Cole: Do you reckon what happens in Dramatis Personae is like All three of them?

Or is the question which of these three is at play? 

Lily: 

I think what I'm positing is that it's a combination of the three.

but perhaps there's a certain kind of social contagion that, is exhibited more in some characters rather than others. Like I can definitely think of moral panic and groupthink, in particular characters as opposed to others. What Yeah, 

Cole: interesting. Well, let me, let me try to sum up what you've just taught me

Um, tell 

Lily: me. 

Cole: mass psychogenic illness is physiological, where 

 Psychosomatic symptoms manifest. 

Lily: On a math scale

Cole: On a mass scale. Whereas moral panic, which is when, again, something spreads on a mass scale [00:19:00] about some sort of, evil, unwelcome incursion into the wholesome social fabric of a community.

And everyone completely panics about something that actually isn't there or is completely blown out of proportion. Yes. And groupthink is when your ability to even make decisions independently is wiped out because everyone's making group decisions and you're basically all in this crazy cult.

Lily: Correct

Cole: got it? 

Lily: Um, you're so good having a little smooch for those little brain grooves on your little brain. 

Cole: Thanks for that, babe. And I guess the three of them could could all manifest at the same time, right? there could be mass hysteria and then that could give way to group think. 

Lily: I think so, and I think this is the thing with these social contagions, I don't know, it's, it's sort of hard to pass them in a way. 

Cole: I mean it's really scary just witnessing them in real time.

I mean, if you're watching, uh, American politics in recent years and you're trying to understand how logic has left the building and you're just seeing everyone. the whims of moral panic and groupthink, and the Kool Aid [00:20:00] from an outside perspective, it's really scary, it's like poor Odo trying to be like, can we, can we talk this through, 

Lily: Yeah.

Cole: that's horror movie stuff, and unfortunately, sometimes we watch it play it out before our own eyes. 

Lily: And I think, uh, this is why Star Trek is here for us, particularly Star Trek Deep Space Nine, 

Cole: side note, this is an episode, that is an exemplar of Odo competency, and I know you're into that, Lily.

I love it. Like, bro, it's so good. He's surrounded by crazy and has to he has to navigate the crazy, he has to like put on a crazy hat to blend in, to save everyone. 

I kinda thought it was a spiritual sibling episode to Babble, which we covered early on. 

Lily: Absolutely 

Cole: Everyone gets infected by some nonsense virus, starts spouting nonsense, and poor Odo, because he's the non humanoid, has to sort everyone out. And, equally, the episode might look like pure silliness on the surface, but, um, about stuff, y'all.

Lily: Um, you heard it here. This episode is about stuff, y'all 

. I'll back it up. It [00:21:00] really is. It really is. should I quickly talk about the wine that I have been drinking for a long time? Oh, I'd love that. And then we can, then I can 

Cole: start drinking it.

Lily: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'll give you some give you some of this. Shibley, have we done Shibley? Oh, 

Cole: we did it for Dax. 

Lily: Did we? Mm 

Cole: hmm. 

Lily: God, cool. Alright, Shibley, 

It's absolute Chablis. so, I've talked about this before, but if you know me, what I actually like to drink is white burgundy, which I have been doing for a while in my life and also today.

it's always good, any weather, any kind of food. like, I'm calling it. This is what everyone should drink. There, I said it. Uh, so Chablis, it's the Chardonnay grape. Chablis Appalachian, which is like the very Northern Burgundy, which is like almost close to Champagne.

and we've already talked about this. the term flinty, but yes, flinty. 

Cole: Mm Uh, not just bad water quality in Michigan, but Michigan. Delicious. Yeah. So much more. So much more literally. Dirt . 

Lily: so what we're drinking tonight is very, very [00:22:00] special. It is, uh, 2018 Shiley. and 2018 I think is generally agreed, a very, very good year for.

Burgundy, and Chablis in particular. the weather was just the right weather, everything worked, the producer is Thomas Pico, under the heading of Domain Patlu. 

. So in Chablis and like a lot of French wines, you've got, different accreditations, like different levels. And this one is, Première Cru. So in Chablis, it goes ,

Petit Chablis, Chablis, Premier, Crewe, Grand Crewe. And this one is a Premier Crewe. 

Cole: what does Crewe tell you? 

Lily: Well, Cru translates to growth. 

Oh, 

more precisely it references a great or superior growing site or vineyard. so I think with Chablis that denotes like the height of elevation, but it can mean different things within French terroir. Like, better growth within the soil, climate, altitude, et cetera, to like create the perfect spot.

so yeah, this is like real fancy and way fancier than what I [00:23:00] could probably afford, at the bottle shop. 

Cole: Rich people are so great to have around

Lily: They're so great. I'm like, why can't I be one of you?

I could do this all day. Have you seen Star Trek? And then they say, please leave. I 

Lily: So this has, extended time on Lees. Have we talked about that before? 

Cole: Um, aren't Lees like the dregs at the bottom? Um, yes 

Lily: and no. So, It's sort of like is fermenting and aging the wine.

So it's the deposits of yeast and other kind of particulates. there's all kinds of styles of fermenting within the wine process, there's a certain time when take it off leaves, but you can leave it on a little bit longer and that can create like a bit of interest, within the wine, like a different dimension to it.

so this has been left on extended time, on Lays, which is, you know, a choice, and , it just like sort of changes the quality of the wine. So I only have one tasting note, and then I think we should drink it cause, uh, you better have this. a profusion of yellow [00:24:00] fruits, almonds, and dried flowers.

consistent and majestic wine which slowly unfolds with feline agility and promises a long life. 

Cole: Stop. What? How good is that? All right, yellow fruits. So we're talking lemons and bananas. 

Lily: No, Cole. With wine we are never talking bananas. 

Cole: what other yellow fruits are there?

Lily: Well, I would say yes, citrus, but also like stone fruits. I would say like peaches and apricots. 

Cole: I mean, those are peach and apricot colored. Did you get a sense that a puma was just springing off a cliff into your mouth? No, it slowly unfolds. With feline agility? 

Lily: Yeah, I feel like it does slowly unfold. You know, we talk about like, the nose and the front and, the finish.

 When you're drinking the wine. You get the smell, you get how it feels in the mouth at the beginning. And then, sort of post that. This is like, I don't know, it sort of gives a lot. You get the whole [00:25:00] story. 

Cole: Like a cat just 

Lily: Yeah. 

Cole: stretching its limbs,. releasing. Gosh, what a beautiful genre of poetry is wine tasting notes. 

Lily: Isn't it? 

And they talk about the producer Thomas Pico and that his wines are at once cerebral and refreshing, much like this podcast.

Cole: exactly like his podcast. 

Lily: And they call that a dangerous combination. Yeah. Um, you've been warned folks. It's a dangerous combination. 

Alright, I'm doing the, I'm doing asthma. 

Oof.

Alright, cheers, y'all. 

Cole: Cheers. 

Lily: Shibley, A dry white. the best one. 

Cole: A dry white for a dry wit 

Lily: Ah! Stop. Never. Never stop though. 

Cole: All right, should we, uh, shibbly do this? 

Lily: let's, 

Cole: let's bring on the drama. I think you and I are messy enough Let's put the drama in this recap. 

Lily: Yeah, drama! 

Cole: Drama! 

Beautiful. 

Lily: Beautiful.

Cole: [00:26:00] Personae. 

Cole: Kira and Sisko have been butting heads all season. a lot of what TV Tropes likes to call jurisdiction friction. 

Lily: Mm. And, 

Cole: You really can't blame my girl Kira here because she just spent years fighting tooth and nail for independence for Bajor Only to immediately have to report to some other outsider Who does not always have a lot of knowledge about Bajoran context So I kind of get it when Kira's a little touchy a little resentful But their latest clash of wills is what kicks off all the drama this episode Kira marches into Sisko's office because a Valyrian ship is requesting to dock at the station and the Valyrians, as she tells Sisko, sold weapons grade dolomite to the Cardassians throughout the occupation and are probably doing it again.

So she's pretty keen to search their ship and confiscate any of that dolomite. But Sisko's a party pooper, saying the Federation's got to follow all these pesky regarding raiding ships without due cause, And besides, he says, Dolomite can be used for all [00:27:00] sorts of other things besides weapons. so Dolomite is basically a stand in for, think, nuclear energy and uranium.

Lily: It's uranium. 

Cole: It's uranium. He says, look, bring me evidence that the Valyrians are dealing in weapons grade Dolomite and then the Federation will step in, until then, no dice, Yeah, sure. I gotta be honest, he's kind of a jerk in this scene to me.

Like, he's immediately dismissive of Kira's pretty valid concerns that maybe the station's about to refuel a ship that's transporting nuclear weapons to her people's sworn enemy. like, the way he's so dismissive, it's almost as if this is, Kira's 10th request that morning to raid a ship unlawfully.

Lily: And I believe it 

Cole: Cause you ain't got no time for 

Lily: her. I believe it. 

Cole: you team Sisko here or are you just like waiting to, uh, dispense judgment? 

Lily: I mean, you know me, I'll never wait to dispense judgment. I will dispense straight away. and also, you know me, I've made a very quick turnaround to being team Sisko.

pretty much since episode 3 of Team Sisko. Uh, I [00:28:00] say is You just have 

Cole: never been Team Kira. I've never been Team Kira. You're not there yet. I think 

Lily: she's very, what's the cowboy term? 

Cole: She's pretty trigger happy.

Yeah

Lily: And I think, we've seen this time and time again in the series so far, that she'll just act without 

Cole: alright, I feel you 

Lily: and I but don't you think that 

Cole: Sisko could be a tad Sympathetic 

Lily: yeah, and look I would say This is playing to their weaknesses already.

This scene is like setting up what are these characters weaknesses. That Sisko can be, I guess, emotionally invalidating. and, being 

Cole: quite 

Lily: straight forward. . Whereas Kira 

Cole: is

trigger happy and emotionally driven

Lily: And Kira is, well, they're both deeply traumatized and maybe this is playing out in certain ways. Totes. Yeah, and I think this scene is great for setting up, who they are, and their deficits in the way that they deal with each other and the way they deal socially. .

Cole: So the, the table is set. the fuse is lit. 

Lily: The 3D [00:29:00] chess has been, laid out. 

Cole: well out in ops? first of all, there's a throwaway line from Dax reporting that Keiko and the school kids have made it to Bajor to visit a grain processing center. 

Lily: Great

Cole: First of all, come on Keiko, that's where you choose to take your students on a field trip?

A grain processing center? I swear 

Lily: The writers hate her.

Cole: But they also hate Bajor. I mean, justice for Keiko. They go out of their way to also make Bajor sound as djol as possible. Yeah, 

Lily: Bajor needs a really good publicist. and, 

Cole: and it ain't, ain't Keiko. No, it ain't 

Lily: Keiko. 

Cole: but secondly, it's basically a handy way to get Keiko and Jake Sisko off the station before their loved ones and everyone else in ops start going cuckoo bananas. 

Lily: Yeah, 

Cole: But, just then, a Klingon science vessel unexpectedly pops out of the wormhole, seconds before exploding! 

because, as you've said before, the wormhole is basically a plot generator bot. Each week it just pops out something else random [00:30:00] that the crew has to deal with. But a lone Klingon manages to beam off the ship moments before it explodes. He's horribly maimed from weapons fire, and he only manages to utter one word with his dying breath.

Victory! 

Lily: Victory! Yeah, it's good. 

Cole: Okay. So yes, the Klingons are all about victory and stuff, but this is very peculiar because that ship had only been in the gamma quadrant on a bio survey mission.

And it hadn't been due back for months. 

Lily: And I have some questions about Klingon science vessels, 

Cole: oh, girl, me too 

Lily: are the Klingon scientists? Is it victory when like, you know, A hypothesis is declared, correct, or I don't, I don't know. 

Cole: So, all right, allow me to briefly introduce perhaps an ongoing segment I'd like to call How did that Star Trek species ever get warp drive and get off their planet? 

Lily: Yeah, true. Because 

Cole: Being a Klingon scientist does not really check out.

I don't think Star Trek has treated the Klingons with enough breadth to really earn [00:31:00] the concept of a Klingon science vessel. like, only way I can figure Klingons ever managing to get off their planet was maybe like some other aliens came down to say hello and the Klingons killed them all 

Lily: all right. Here's my theory. There are like a ton of Klingons. In the same vein as Worf, but they weren't raised by humans trying to assert their clinging on ness. Yeah. So they just like live on Where do they, where do Clingons live again?

Cole: Kronos. 

Lily: Kronos. So there's just like, 

Cole: yeah. 

Lily: So many Clingons on Kronos who are just like nice autistic clingons who are just like not trying to be like, I will have the most clinging on thing that exists. They're like. Nah, I'm into some science and then they do that. 

Cole: Not like eating their enemy's hearts for breakfast.

Lily: Totally. They're just like, the victory today was that, they cleaned my test tubes. I don't know. I'm not a scientist, clearly. 

Cole: And just this morning, I saw something really cute. Like, imagine on Kronos, instead of there being [00:32:00] like a BDSM subculture, there's just like a, like a cuddle subculture where Klingons are like, do you also hey, do you also like to just get together and cuddle?

And then they do it in sort of like dark back alleys because they're sort of rejected, right? 

Lily: Yeah, totally. 

Cole: I support the Klingon cuddle subculture. And maybe there's a Klingon science subculture that invented warp drive. Okay. , This has been a segment of how did that Star Trek species ever get off their planet? 

Lily: Yeah. Okay, cool. 

Cole: So mystery. What are these kons doing there? Sisko orders a Brian and Dax to take a shuttle to investigate the debris for clues.

And what's this? Dax is kind of spacing out and then giggling to herself. on the way to the shuttle. 

Lily: Giggling? What?

Cole: doesn't giggle. She's too wise for that. Something is amiss. 

Cole: later, those Valerians show up and request docking. But, Kira tells them to wait, and Sisko, who was apparently micromanaging his first officer and hovering right nearby, immediately looms over her and is not pleased that she's gone directly against his orders.

[00:33:00] He's like, what? What are you doing? She's like, well, trying to trace the Valerian ship's itinerary, because maybe if they just came from a dolomite purification site, It's pretty damning evidence that they've got that purified weapons grade dolomite, but Sisko, again, immediately brushes her off, doesn't even respond to her, and grants those Valerians permission to dock.

I'm telling you, he's pretty pissy today. He is in a mood. 

Lily: Daddy's mad. And 

Cole: of course, daddy's mad. 

Lily: but Kira went against his specific instructions. 

Cole: Kira is trying to do exactly what he told her to do, which is try to find damning evidence that they have purified some weapons grade dolomite.

She's just doing the best she can. Whose side are you on, Lily? Whose side are you on? 

Lily: Clearly on Daddy Sisko's, also one of, one of the planets is called Mariah 4, and I just had to bring that up. 

Cole: I was gonna bring it up, but I'm like, nah, I can count on Lilly. was the name of Mariah's fourth album? Because I think this is like an Easter egg for us. 

Lily: Let me just [00:34:00] quickly Google it. And I

Cole: Whoa. it's

called Daydream. It's a clue. 

Lily: Oh shit, it's an easter egg!

Cole: I think all the station's officers are in some sort of horrific daydream nightmare for this episode, and Mariah's trying to tell us that. 

Lily: they all love Mariah Carey, 

Cole: yeah,

All right, back to The drama unfolding. 

I have one last thing to say about the scene with Sisko captain, which is makeup watch, look at the scene again closely, and the Valerian captain, looks exactly like Woody Harrelson if Woody Harrelson were an orange muppet with a mop on his head.

Lily: Ooh, yeah, I agree. I heart agree. I was also gonna say Valerians ain't pretty, and it's kind of like a bit of a purple, dreads, but not as cute. And also kind of face holes. It's not cute. There's a lot of face holes. There's like multiple 

Cole: nostrils, but

Lily: Have the normal amount of face holes. Everybody. 

Cole: moving on Odo and Quark are down in Quark's bar chatting about BDSM. 

Lily: Yes, my favourite best friends. Club,

Cole: They're, they're talking about [00:35:00] those Klingon scientists and what they might have been up to over the Gamma Quadrant.

Quark's saying ain't got time for people who think pain is pleasure, well, except maybe in small doses. Wink, wink, Godot, wink, wink. 

Lily: Yeah, Which makes me think like, just to get into it, cause this is what we're doing this episode. Get into it. He's got a little whip, but it's like got feathers on the end and it's got no bite to it.

So he likes to do BDSM, but as like zero pain. You know what I mean? 

got a flimsy little whip. . I don't want to think about 

Cole: Quark being like Gently whipped? Does he do the whipping or does he get whipped? 

Lily: He gets whipped, obviously.

Cole: later where Bashir pulls like a feather out of his ear and so he does enjoy Some, some softcore play. look, I just watched that episode, sorry.

So not be revived in post, you 

Lily: will put this in. 

Cole: Obviously. Okay, so he's like, I don't like Klingons coming to my hollow suites. they make a mess and [00:36:00] wreck the bar furniture. then Odo is fishing for some intel and Quark knows what's going on. 

Lily: But I'm gonna stop you there because if I don't stop you right now you'll miss the One Fashion watch of this entire episode.

'cause it's a drought. This episode is a drought. 

Cole: What are, what are we missing all 

Lily: right, so in this scene, there is one really good alien . 

His skin tone is lavender. 

Cole: she's like gorgeous with Muppet haired fur around her pink scalp. 

Lily: Purple fuzzy tufts coming out of the head. A white jumpsuit with matching purple embellishments on the shoulders and the hips. And can I just say, what is better than matching your clothes with your purple skin tone?

Nothing! You gotta coordinate that. It's high contrast, you've got the white with the purple, you've got the fuzzy tusks, you've got the purple skin tone, it's giving the only good thing about this episode in terms of fashion. And I'll leave it there. 

 I'm glad you brought her up.

Cole: It's the exact same cranial structure as another alien [00:37:00] we've seen. And it's like the makeup crew was like, how can we glam this up? How can we elevate this drag? 

Lily: Yeah, 

Cole: I guess I'm genderizing it They just turned it into like a she alien with these really cute purple fringe, but he might be really proud of his purple fringe I don't even know. 

Lily: Look, He or she. 

 But as Odo goes to leave, he keels over in pain, and it does not look pleasant. His head sort of shapeshift splits open, almost like he's having the worst changeling migraine you can imagine. 

Lily: And he 

Cole: collapses to the ground, and Quark runs to get Dr. Bashir, like a good friend. 

 Yeah, he looks appalled.

Lily: And also, Odo kind of looks like a character in a Charlie Brown comic, like, with his mouth open, mouth out. Can you just look at it? 

Cole: wait, like, 

it's sort of like if Snoopy is daydreaming. 

Lily: Yeah, it's real Snoopy. 

Cole: poor guy. 

 awakens in the infirmary, and Dr. Bashir's relieved, because honestly, he knows diddly about changeling anatomy and had no idea what was wrong with the poor guy. Odo feels back to normal and leaves to go, but, what's this, [00:38:00] Bashir wants to get Odo's take on this Valerian situation.

Lily: Ooh, spillin the tea. 

Cole: wants to dish gas.

Lily: But before we go there, Can I just, like, take you back to the start of that scene and talk about how Odo looks like Tilda Swinton. 

Cole: I kind of think Odo always looks like Tilda Swinton, 

Lily: but But particularly, like, with the closed eyes, resting peacefully. he really is a shapeshifter. At one moment He's Snoopy. And the next moment, Tilda 

Cole: And, just to take us back to our triple layer take of this episode, Lily, Is it Odo who has range, or is it René Auberginois with range? 

does Rene morph as much as Odo? These are the questions. 

Lily: Or is it that mask they put on him

Cole: so Bashir's like, uh, what's the goss, what's the tea, know what I'm talking about, and this is a great line. Odo's like, what are you on about, and Bashir's like, I think you know what I mean.

and Odo says, why don't you tell me, then you can be sure I know what you mean. 

Lily: Classic, Gonna use that. 

Cole: [00:39:00] Odo he knows how to blend in with the crazies, which is a skill that everyone in 2024 should have.

Lily: And do you know what he can mainly do is imitate a conspiracy theorist. 

Cole: Yes, exactly. 

it's like an undercover New York Times journalist at a Trump rally. That's who Odo is this whole 

Lily: episode. like Louis Theroux before everyone knew what Louis Theroux did.

Cole: Exactly. Well Bashir's like, I think the uneasy alliance between Sisko and Kira on the station is starting to show a few cracks and Odo's understandably a little wigged out by what Bashir's insinuating and, uh, sidles off. 

Lily: and he uses his, favorite get out of jail free card, which is another time perhaps.

And I just need to remember to say that whenever I'm about to ghost, like when someone says like, Oh, do you want to come do this thing? And just being like, another time, perhaps. I love it. It's my favorite. 

Cole: Another time perhaps. , 

Lily: It's good. It's like his calling card. It's great. Yeah. It's like social anxiety 101 and also like being a bitch [00:40:00] 101. 

Cole: Do you think you and Odo could have, could have had something if you existed in the same universe?

Lily: Yeah, I think so. Yeah. 

Cole: I'm going to be pondering that well after we're done recording this episode, like , the romance that could have been. Wow. 

issue I'm seeing is that you would never Ever both agree to actually spend time together.

Lily: Ooh, I love that though. It would just be 

Cole: years and years of avoiding each other's company. 

Lily: I love it. . Being with the person. 

Cole: You and Odo, you and Odo are exhausting. All right. So. Up in Sisko's office, Kira strides triumphantly in, claiming she's got that evidence Valyrians have purified Dolomite.

But Sisko now seems completely out of fucks to give. Instead, he's hunched over some draft board that he instantly hides from Kira when she walks in. 

Lily: Ooh, secret 

drawings. 

Cole: These two are already having a real bad day, but the tension is cranked up to 11 now, as well the acting. The acting between Nana'a and Avery is just ratcheted to 11 here. 

Lily: Sometimes I think, Who will act more? 

Cole: And you just don't [00:41:00] know.. 

swaggering around, hoisting her hand on her belt.

diction is getting more and more, you know, Dictated. 

Lily: His favorite thing is to 

Cole: draw 

Lily: everything back and bring it back

And then come out! 

Cole: are you challenging my command of this station, Major? Yeah! He rides the wave, right? He, uh, 

Lily: And I will hang ten, dude, on that. Cause You're riding the Avery 

Cole: wave. 

Lily: Yeah, I've never surfed. 

Cole: So yeah, Kira, Sisko, they're having this pissing contest about who's got real authority on the station. , 

Meanwhile O'Brien and Dax are on the runabout trying to scour the Klingon debris for the ship's mission recorder, when O'Brien takes the opportunity for some more political intrigue. He wants to know Where Dax's loyalties lie in this growing tension between Sisko and Kira. if Ryan warns her, he says, I wouldn't get too friendly with the natives if I were [00:42:00] you.

Remember where your loyalties lie. 

Lily: Whoa. Whoa. That is some right wing rhetoric.

Cole: Okay So clearly, something's gotten into our officers, but, going back to my question, how much of our characters are still there under the surface? Because, going back to episode one, you and I have talked about O'Brien kind of having a problem with, uh, I mean, the bro's a little racist. Maybe a little human supremacist.

and it's almost like it's been exaggerated here where he's talking about the natives. He's sounding especially small minded and especially off, color, but that is kind of in O'Brien's DNA. 

Lily: Totally. and the next thing he says is anyone who's against Sisko is against me, which is pretty much to say, if you're not with us, you're against us.

which is a very conservative concept. It's a very, groupthink concept. Totes. 

Cole: and I, and I, 

Lily: totally agree with you. These are things that O'Brien is expressing from episode one. 

Cole: he doesn't interrogate those groupthink, us versus them [00:43:00] thoughts that he has very, closely.

Lily: No, he doesn't. and what's Dax's response? 

Cole: So Dax is Space Case, and all she wants to do is reminisce and tell folks the anecdotes about how she and Ben go back years, lol, and okay, so she's spacey, but the way her spacey ness plays out in this episode is she just wants to reminisce about memories.

Lily: Yeah. 

Cole: Yeah. And. Isn't that cool? Because Dax has 300 years of memories. And so imagine if you're really ditzy Trill, you'd just be lost in like this endless rabbit's hole of memories. And so I think that's where the Dax is playing out in this character that she becomes. Right? 

Lily: Yeah. But it's really interesting because it's like, Dax is definitely the outlier within the group of what happens, but they, they do all react differently. She's sort of on 

Cole: her own. She's not really getting drawn in. 

Lily: The mass 

Cole: hysteria, is she? My 

Lily: theory is that she is, 

within social propaganda. She is like the good person who stands by that. She's [00:44:00] just swept along with whoever has the strongest voice. 

Cole: For sure. 

I think she's like a well intentioned actor who does not have the strength to stand by her own convictions.

Lily: Oh, what are you saying about Terry Farrell? Take it back.

Cole: I'm saying nothing about Terry Farrell. I will say regarding Terry Farrell, she has said in multiple interviews, this was her first, main character TV role, and definitely her first time in sci fi, and she had a really steep learning curve, and she really struggled, and she was sort of drowning in imposter syndrome all of season one with all the technobabble, She always felt like she was surrounded by all these veterans, and she really had to, to learn self confidence, and I guess that's interesting that here, she's playing the ditz, and it's almost like, it's how Terry Farrell was feeling.

And she got to play that character for an episode, but so I think that might be happening. And I don't know if that was the scriptwriters letting her do that or her like taking a chance to do that. 

Lily: Yeah, I like the part that it plays [00:45:00] within, a mutiny as well.

the character who just lets it happen. who just sort of goes along for the ride rather than having like a real stake in the game. I think that's a huge part of war. And can any of us say that, 

Cole: Whom among us can say that we won't?

Just be swept along in the tide. 

Lily: It's true. Hmm. 

Cole: Okay, so we're in Odo's office and Kira saunters 

Lily: in 

Cole: and she has now fully morphed into her new alter ego, which is this seductive scheming persona.

 So it begins on Deep Space Nine. I swear every damn time that Nanar Visitor plays some different character. She's the sultry seductress. 

Lily: Yeah, 

so what I want to say is that what Nana, visitor, is doing is um, not good and it's not sexy.

And I just need everyone to know that and I think she's a great person and actor and I come to love Kira later, not in this season. What [00:46:00] she's doing is awkward and weird and bad. and let the record show that that is objective and it's not subjective. 

Cole: all right. I think you've made your message known.

 Have I made that 

Cole: clear? My okay, I've,

I've seen Nana convention. I've also seen her in interviews. I've seen her Instagram. I think natural Nana on the streets is quite more, she's quite feminine. 

I think that N'Nah's natural state is much more feminine than Kira 

Lily: I think what you're trying to say, The character of Kira, is performing a kind of femininity that is masculine. 

Cole: I mean, Kira, she's a soldier, she marches around, she's got like shoulder pads in her season one costume.

And I've, I've discussed this 

Lily: as a concept in um, oh god, what was the episode? Progress. Progress. That she performs femininity in a different way. Or not as well. or however you would regard it, that she has masculine tendencies as a character. 

Cole: right. 

Lily: [00:47:00] So, let's put the, play within a play actor within an actor, life imitating art, imitating art, view on it. And Nana is, kind of a feminine woman. Who is playing a more masculine presenting woman pretending to exude feminine sexuality in like a kind of weird 1940s. kind of way. and that is, It's a hard thing to do and maybe it's not working or maybe it is.

don't 

Cole: that what's happening? 

Do you think Nana is trying to play Kira playing seductive and so it's like going through a double filter?

Lily: Yes

Cole: Okay. 

Lily: I think Kira Norris is there. So I'm, 

Cole: I'm giving her credit. Okay. So she's actually trying, she's trying to get all three layers, but that's a very difficult thing to pull off. 

Lily: And here's what I'm going to say.

It's cause she does so much weird smiling. Like when you're being seductive, there's a lot less toothy smiling. Uh, you know, . back me up here.

Cole: So she goes into Otto's office and she tries to trick [00:48:00] Odo into sneaking onto the Valerian ship to look for weapons. But Odo is too smart for her, and she's forced to admit she was trying to manipulate him. She's like, you know, forget it. Bad idea. Hey, remember who your friends are.

Lily: There's a lot happening 

Cole: yeah, toothy grins. You're totally right

Lily: Tilda Swinton mask 

reacting to what's happening There's so many layers I I would love to give more credence to this choice, but it just makes me so uncomfortable. It makes I'm, I'm gonna say it gives me the ick. and I think, the beginning of the was really buying her. I was really buying the kind of caged outrage of what was happening. 

Cole: yep, yep, yep. And 

Lily: then, 

Cole: It sort of spirals into, look, it's campy, you just gotta embrace the camp, Lily, that's all I gotta tell you.

You gotta,

Lily: You just gotta admit it's soap opera and move on with your life, 

Cole: Okay, they finally manage to recover fragments of a Klingon's journal, and so everyone shows up in ops to see what's on it.

The journal itself is pretty garbled, but we catch this Klingon describing what sounds like a bloody mutiny on board. He [00:49:00] mentioned some energy spheres. Very intriguing. Sisko is just bored out of his mind.

He's like, I couldn't care less what happened on a Klingon ship. And he stromps back to the privacy of his office. I love, I love poor Odo reacting to that. Like, what is happening? 

Lily: He's like, that's my daddy. Don't say that. Yeah, he's like, daddy, you should care. my god, we all care so much, that's the point.

Yeah, 

Cole: Dax just goes into her anecdotes. , it's adorbs. Terry, I love it. 

Lily: adorbs. You've missed the part That was my zinger of the opening . Where please, . Sisko is saying, you know, can you just look for this thing? on the cling on Chip and Dak says, the search itself is often reward enough, and Sisko's like, Sisko's like, why don't care.

Just do what you want. And then he storms up. so good. 

Cole: I 

Lily: so like, don't bother when you heard it. so good. 

Cole: So is that like Dax under the surface trying to be wise but she can't because she's been taken over by a complete space [00:50:00] case? 

Lily: Um, okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. 

Cole: It's like she knows she's meant to be the wise presence, but she just can't because she's been possessed by an idiot.

Lily: Yeah. Okay. So I think maybe we need to come back to this when we learn what the actual construct is. That's, 

Cole: yeah. Yep. Yep. Fair, 

Lily: Yeah. 

Cole: Okay, so, Dax goes down Quark's, and this is where, I mean, the clue about what's happening in this entire episode is laid before us. Quark resident mixologist is putting the finishing touches on a Modela aperitif, which is a striped, multi layered cocktail that resembles that primary school science experiment about liquid densities.

Lily: or a, like, fucked up. cocktail slash shooter that you had, at the Globe in 2007. 

Cole: So Quark's feeling a little lucky today. He's laying flirting on thick with Dax when Kira shows up 

Lily: Can I stop you? 

Cole: Always 

Lily: Because he uses 

the most, Mormon, pickup line that I've ever heard. Don't tell me 

Cole: [00:51:00] about Mormon pickup lines. 

Lily: I must be living correctly to be so blessed.

That's legit what he says! That's gotta be a Mormon pick up line, am I right? 

How did he learn that? 

I must be livin correctly to be so blessed When I take you out on my Surrey with the fringe on top, you know That's what it's giving. 

Cole: Uh, Vekira says get lost. He's not the only one trying to lay on the flirting, because it's time for Kira try her seductive game on Dax. 

Lily: It 

Cole: does not Does it? I don't think it goes well.

She asks Dax, how you doing? To which Dax replies, my favorite line of the episode, Dax says, You know what they say, put the shoe on the right foot first, but put the left foot first into the bathtub.

love that, and I love Nanaa visitor Kira's reaction, just like, what the [00:52:00] what? 

Lily: Yeah, I love it.

Cole: Kira's like, sure, but where do your loyalties lie? Question of the episode, and Dax is like, hey, I've been close with Benji. Been close with Benjamin for years. he's like a son, or a nephew. Or 

Lily: a nephew kind of person.

Cole: Some close relative. 

Lily: She also asks, are you happy? And Dax says, 

Cole: Says 

Lily: well, no one's really asked her that question before. No one's asked 

Cole: me that before. 

Lily: Yeah, that's nice. Yeah, it's really sad. It's like hot people get sad too, guys. Colin, I know. Like, just ask us if we're happy, like, because maybe we're not.

We never 

Cole: get asked that question. Yeah. 

Good. so unfortunately for Quark keep in mind everyone, Quark did not lose his mind in the same way everyone else did. He's the same Quark we know and love. He overhears Qi'ra announce her intentions to overthrow Sisko and when Qi'ra spots him, she grabs him by the collar and then hurls him against the back of the bar. 

Lily: I was actually quite shocked by the violence of Kira throwing him against the, 

Glassware. Like it was actually, it was kind of scary. For me.

Cole: Yeah this [00:53:00] episode kinda has some, scary violence in it, like some, kinda hard to watch violence, 

Lily: there's a few times where I was sort of shocked, 

yeah, yeah. 

Cole: I mean, mass hysteria is a scary thing. Groupthink, look out everyone, , it can turn violent.

Um, But My question, my big question for this scene is like, Kira's bisexual energy? are we gonna do with that?

Lily: Um, we're gonna roll with it for the rest of the series. And like 

Cole: We are. 

Lily: Pray that she and Dax, you know, something's happening. But we don't know. 

Cole: Myrette? My only hesitation with rolling with it is like, we got an all male writing staff in 1993.

Is it just their puerile fantasies, writing Kira as bisexual whenever they can? is it nana? Is it somehow woke? it, is it okay? Tell me it's okay. 

Lily: Oh no, no, no, it's okay. And I think, um, I think Kira doesn't exist for the male gaze. That's my call. 

Cole: Well, see that's, I mean, she doesn't usually, but here she is being all seductive and slinky.

And is it like the showrunners being like, [00:54:00] now's our chance for her to exist for the male gaze? 

Lily: No, that's not you're more 

Cole: forgiving than that. 

Lily: No, she does seductive and slinky many other times with many male characters And it equally doesn't work. So she's like an equal opportunity not sexy for me. So she's just like 

Cole: an equal opportunity fail. 

Lily: Yeah, , 

Cole: Alright.

Lily: And I invite any kind of opportunity for Dax to question what's going on with her. 

Cole: her own sexuality. 

Lily: And whether she's fucking happy, you know, Cause like, 

Cole: we want Jadzia to be happy.

Lily: It's my main goal. 

Cole: Yeah. 

Well, poor Quark hobbles into Odo's office, sporting a massive neck brace, fashion watch. Odo compliments it as the new Ferengi fashion accessory. 

Lily: Yes. I forgot to say this is the only other fashion moment. It's a chrome neck brace and the cushioning it's like, Burgundy, but it's like It's quite a bit of apparatus, but it's gorgeous. just saying. 

Cole: Well for Quark's general fashion, more is more. So he hobbles into Odo's office, he wants to file charges against Kira

Lily: Yeah. 

Cole: [00:55:00] but Odo's far more interested in knowing what Quark overheard, because he's beginning to become convinced that everyone is not themselves.

And he, jets off to tell Sisko his concerns, and poor Quark just limps after him, rasping, Odo! I want satisfaction! 

Lily: Satisfaction! 

Cole: okay, 

goes to see only to find O'Brien sitting in Sisko's desk. 

Lily: What? 

Cole: So O'Brien's new is this sort of fiercely loyal, mobster, right hand man person.

Love 

Lily: it. Love 

Cole: it. Yeah, 

Lily: He's an enforcer, 

Cole: he tells Odo that Sisko is laying low in his quarters where he can be safe.

 And then before Odo can leave, O'Brien's like, don't the commander and I always try to make you happy? 

Lily: Ooh. 

So silly and dumb.

Cole: And I love all of Odo's reaction shots. to his colleagues just having gone off the deep end but trying to play it cool.

Lily: It's just like horrified Tilda. I love it. 

Cole: Odo goes straight to Sisko's quarters. he finds our buddy Lieutenant Jones [00:56:00] guarding the entrance. We love Lieutenant Jones working hard Yes.

Lily: Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

Cole: He's on security duty this week. They even let him have a line of dialogue, which is a big moment for both the character and the actor.

We love that. 

Lily: Wait, what does he say again? 

Cole: I don't know, like, O'Brien's orders. 

Lily: Yeah, O'Brien's orders. I think that's what it is. It's hot. 

Lily: I love a man who never speaks and then says one thing and never speaks again. 

Cole: I think he'll talk again six seasons later, and that's just the way Lily likes her men. Taciturn. 

Lily: And competent, 

Cole: Inside Sisko's quarters, Odo finds many things.

he finds a 3D chessboard, he finds a very second rate landscape of some sort of moon over some ocean 

Lily: one man's opinion. 

Cole: I feel like you could buy that artwork at like, the beach in Bali. It ain't cute. Didn't you tell me that they reused the map paintings of actual landscapes as.

Yeah, they did. Wallart, so that's what's happening, uh, and he also [00:57:00] finds Sisko pouring over that draft board, deep in concentration. 

So this scene, I mean frankly Avery Brooks. is chewing up every piece of furniture in that room. just acting for the gods. Is it Benjamin? Is it Avery? Because there is some high, high emoting going on. 

Lily: It's like pure camp, but with whisper tones. My favorite. 

Cole: Sisko that he's concerned and Sisko says, on such a fine afternoon, how in appropriate.

Lily: Oh, I love this episode. Right? I mean. 

Cole: First of all, is there such a thing as a fine afternoon in space? And then How in Appropriate. 

, so Sisko has no time for Odo's concerns. He's really excited to share some drawings for a clock that he's been working on.

Lily: Turns out, what Sisko wants to do is just build charge keys. And, [00:58:00] uh, who among us, you know? Who among us? 

Cole: Okay, here's some fun behind the scenes. so the writer of this episode, Joe Manosky, says that he based Sisko's alter ego on Emperor Rudolph , who I had never heard of, but he was a 16th century Holy Roman Emperor who had all sorts of wild hobbies other than actually running the Holy Roman Empire, 

Lily: Mmm, classic. 

Cole: Yeah, sure. We've all been there. Dude was into like automatons, horology, art collection, occult practices. This guy had all the hobbies and he just was useless being an emperor. And I love that dear Joe Minovsky was such an Emperor Rudolph fan that he's like, I'll let Avery Brooks be this crazy guy for an episode.

Lily: Sure. When I say classic, I don't mean I have been a Holy Roman Emperor. I mean that there were Emperors. who also took the piss and just like did things they wanted to do aka Nero Emperor Nero just went around fiddling and stabbing people. Yeah, 

Cole: it's Nero too. So, um, Also [00:59:00] just delivery moment, when Odo asks Cisco, what those drawings are. Sisko says, A clock! 

Lily: So good. 

Cole: Extreme enunciation. 

Lily: episode one, Lily Rossen of this podcast is like vindicated by this episode. That's all I'm saying. 

Cole: Okay, so I was chatting with, loyal listener, Susie, uh, she, 

Lily: she loves 

Cole: our podcast, hey Susie, and she's got this fascinating theory that Sisko's enunciation, going back to this triple layer cake that is this episode, Sisko's extreme enunciation, Do we think this is either Benjamin Sisko's or Avery Brooks's interpretation a black man in a position of leadership where there have not been enough Black leaders? Like, this is the first Black Star Trek captain, the first lead of a Star Trek show, and is there an attempt to show through your diction this

trying to present, to prove oneself in this [01:00:00] role Am I making sense? 

Lily: All right. So my answer is, well, obviously yes. I mean, obviously this is Avery Brooks's impression of an erudite, bold white man.

Um. Right. And he, and he is in fact an erudite, bold black man. So he's playing, he is playing black man, in some future who is just treated with respect and there's no I mean, there are, illusions towards his race, but that is not actually specifically caught question, um, while he is in command.

 So yeah, I think that's an astute observation. Um, there's a really, really great, Instagram account. hang on, let me just quickly look up the name. Cause she's, black American woman, and she, sort of says she was raised by Deep Space Nine because, it was quite hard to find, African American, 

Cole: Role models 

Lily: on TV. 

Cole: and Avery Brooks says like, yeah, as just like, black people in leadership positions, but [01:01:00] especially black parents, devoted black parents, he knew that there was a huge dearth in 90s television, and he felt this huge responsibility to, to fill that space. 

Lily: Robin Trex is her Instagram handle and if you follow us on Instagram, I steal a lot of her memes. and she has some very interesting things to say about being raised on Deep Space 9 as a young black woman. and the things that she has to say about Sisko and sort of what that meant to her. 

Cole: going to have to look her up. fascinating. She's 

Lily: great. 

Cole: I guess, yeah, the question is, if Deep Space Nine came out today in the 2020s, would Avery Brooks feel more bandwidth to speak in his own dialect, or in a more African American dialect, , would there be less pressure to put on the dialect of a, of an old white guy, as you said?

Lily: I think unequivocally we could probably say yes. I sure hope 

Cole: so. 

Lily: Yeah. but also I'd like to speak to his Shakespearean background 

Cole: and 

Lily: what that's bringing, to this performance. and the fact that even though it's melodramatic and what [01:02:00] he's doing is like hyper reality.

It's still, like, really compelling. 

Cole: I mean, it's fun again, this is a chance for Avery Brooks to really lean into his urges as an actor. Very often, this really over the top, extreme alter ego gets to be played out by Avery Brooks on the show. And he chews it up, and I love it.

Lily: I love it too. And, As we noted at the top of this episode, I'm a white lady who drinks white wine, and therefore, have pretty much no opinion on this, but, the end. 

Cole: 

So, next scene, Odo gets back to his office. for what I'm assuming, Lily, might be your favorite shot of the episode because Yeah, 

Lily: the most heinous boots of 2007. 

Cole: 2007? 

Lily: well I had them at 2007. Okay. At the club. So, 

Cole: it's this amazing shot of the gumshoe entering his office, only to find the femme fatale waiting for him there.

In shit ugly 

Lily: boots. The camera [01:03:00] is 

Cole: just lingering on her boots propped up on the desk. And why, oh why, are Kira's military issue boots so over the top and ugly and like, unfashionably fashionable? They've got some ruffles and trimmings. 

Lily: I guess yes, as you say, they're trying to do a femme 

Cole: Very, like, The Graduate kind of thing. Yeah. 

Lily: but the boots are heinous. 

Yeah, any Femme Fatale kind of shot where it's privileging the, feet or the legs before it privileges the, the view of the, I don't know, the guy who's about to be in her grasp. but they're like both too frilly and utilitarian.

And, and I will admit that I had them in 2007 and I wore them to the club. So, it 

Cole: Can I just say that you're drunk, but you just said, The shot privileges her boots, which is incredible. 

Lily: Thank you. 

What can't you do? 

there's, there's a lot of things, but talk.

Shit about boots when I'm drunk is, uh, a thing I can do. 

Cole: So guess what? It's more Kira the Seductress trying to seduce Odo. she's bolted down the [01:04:00] Valerian's ship so they can't leave. Side note, remember them, the Valerians? Like, you've got to wonder how they're coping through all this nonsense drama that's going down.

Lily: Yeah

They're like, this is just some Game of Thrones crossover and, you Are we on 

Cole: the right show? Kira tells Odo she's set a plan in motion to oust Sisko and wants his support, saying that all of Odo's wildest dreams can come true if Sisko gets the boot.

She's like, you can throw Quark in jail. You can declare martial law. And like, yeah, these are sadly the things that Odo daydreams about. We all saw If Wishes Were Horses. 

Lily: She's appealing to his greatest wishes. 

Cole: Yeah,, but once she slinks off, she slinks off so very well, Odo digs into that reconstructed Klingon log, learns that those Klingons came upon some alien, quote, telepathic archive, energy spheres.

Ooh, 

Lily: some spheres 

Cole: And I guess spheres describe some ancient power struggle that brought about the collapse of an entire civilization hundreds of years ago. And that's when the light bulb goes off, he's like, I think I know what's [01:05:00] going down with my buddies on this station. Sure. 

Lily: And can you just tell me what the ancient culture were called?

Cole: No, I did not write it down. 

Lily: Let me tell you what it is. It's 

Cole: okay. 

Lily: Salt Saltana, which, um, Saltana sounds a lot like Sultana and it makes me mad. It just feels lazy. 

Cole: look, I don't know if this is gonna make you feel better, but Americans don't have sultanas.

We just call them golden raisins. 

Lily: And that also makes me mad, but sultanas are a thing! Like, I had a little packet of them in my lunchbox every single day. A little packet of sultanas. 

Cole: Yeah, but you didn't grow up in the US, so My 

Lily: opinion is invalid and you are the only culture that exists.

Okay, Federation. That's what I'm trying 

Cole: to say. And I'm glad you got the 

Lily: memo. 

Cole: Sisko's up in his office with his right hand man, O'Brien. He is pouring over the most Gorgeous and intricate prop we have yet to lay eyes on. 

Lily: legitimately beautiful. Like, no question, the most beautiful thing we've seen on this show.

Cole: [01:06:00] It's stunning. This clock is coming to life. It is wildly complicated just for telling time, but it is gorgeous. Form over function. Am I right? 

Lily: Like time well spent and probably function is happening too. We don't know. We don't know anything about this clock It's a mystery. 

Cole: Time well spent, indeed. Yeah, 

Lily: thank you.

Cole: so, lots of intrigue. O'Brien's like, uh, we gotta take down Kira before she can make her move. And, alright, is this High Camp or High Shakespeare or, High Avery Brooks? 

Lily: Hi Shakespeare. All right. it's both, but I also wrote Shakespeare like 30 times in this episode.

And I was, also questioning who is Iago and I think the answer is in Othello, Um, not, Aladdin, He's 

Cole: not a squawking parrot played by that dude who squawks a lot. 

Lily: Gilbert Godfried. And if you're ever in for a really funny time, Look up Gilbert Gottfried reads Fifty Shades of Grey. 

Cole: But this is not about [01:07:00] that Iago. 

Lily: No, this is the other Iago. Othello. 

 We've all read Othello, right? 

Cole: Yeah, at least once

Lily: Othello, he's sort of a great, general They describe him as the Moor. So he is of, like Arabian North African Persuasion. North African. Yeah. but he's a great general within the army, but everyone surrounding him is white,.

Um, and He has a romance with a white woman. And basically, , Iago convinces him that Desdemona is cheating on him with, a lieutenant in his army. And there's already sort of, racial things happening, there's jealousies happening, but he's also convinced other people within the army That other intrigues are happening.

It's it's basically Iago's world in a sense that he plays upon everyone's paranoia

Cole: he's the seed. He is planting the social contagion Yes. Discord. He's like a, 

Lily: He whispers things in people's ear. He whispers their greatest fear or their paranoia and, makes them believe it 

Cole: like a human manifestation [01:08:00] of mass hysteria. 

Lily: So he in a sense is the Social contagion. 

. 

Cole: Okay, orb thing, the sphere. Holy shit, Lily, the sphere is Iago, and I love that. I love it.

Lily: I almost went with that for my whole faces,

Cole: Oh, come on, it's called Dramatis Personae, which is the first, the first phrase in every single Shakespeare script. So, also, we've already said how the Klingons are the most Shakespearean species in Star Trek.

of course, our humans were infected from this thing, from the Klingons, who are just naturally Shakespearean 

Lily: all 

Cole: right. So, this episode does just get better and better. O'Brien says, let's escape the station and regroup and Sisko leaps up and says, NEVER! Get me a phaser! 

I'll get rid of 

Lily: And it's very, bring me my sword 

Cole: what's that from? 

Lily: Um, I think it's Romeo and Juliet. My soul! 

Cole: Yeah, it's, just every, like, when Macbeth has gone insane, right? Yeah, Tomorrow and tomorrow and tomorrow.

Ooh, I 

Lily: I have a question. The metaphor of the clock [01:09:00] building, Do we have any ideas? 

Cole: I mean we've got like Nero fiddling as Rome burns, 

Lily: You also said it. You just said it. 

Cole: Um, Macbeth? Tomorrow and tomorrow. Tomorrow and tomorrow and tomorrow creeps in this petty pace from day to day just like the sands of an hourglass, so are the days of our lives. 

Lily: Yeah, that's definitely how it goes. All right. 

Cole: yes, say no more

Lily: is that what it means

Cole: That's exactly what it means. 

Lily: No, no, but let's say more. it's, I think it calls us back to another episode. The idea of 

the cyclical 

Cole: Oh, progress. Progress. Oh, shit, Lily. Oh, shit. She did 

Lily: it. She drank a lot of wine and she got to the thesis. That's so good. This is a cyclical. 

Cole: History repeats itself. Yeah. History repeats itself, just like Sisko's clock spinning round and round. 

Lily: Let me do a [01:10:00] reading. 

Cole: Please, ready. 

Lily: All right, This is, from Macbeth, spoken by Macbeth. Yes! Tomorrow and tomorrow and tomorrow Creeps in this petty pace from day to day To the last syllable of recorded time And all our yesterdays have lighted fools The way to dusty death Out!

Out, brief candle! Life's but a walking shadow, a poor player that struts and frets his hour upon the stage and then is heard no more.

Which is a tale. Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing. Goosebumps. Goosebumps. 

Cole: Oh, Lily. I wanna stick a fork in your brain and eat it for dessert. 

Lily: [01:11:00] Oh, it probably pickled. It's a pickled brain by now.

Cole: yeah. But , it's such a brilliant in of history repeats itself. Which is the biggest sort of underlying message, if there's any message, that this episode is trying to say. Coupled with, we're all forced into these dramatis personae. Like, we might think we have agency, but we end up just playing these roles. We're all just following these tried and true scripts that have been playing out over and over and over again.

Full of sound and fury, full of like Kira's full of Avery Brooks emotiveness, I have such a crush on your brain. 

Lily: Thank you. 

Cole: Okay, let's finish this recap. Let's do it. We're, we're creeping in this petty pace. Odo goes into the infirmary, just as Bashir is giving some random Bajoran officer some sleeping medicine, apparently.

Lily: Oh shit, which side is he on? 

Cole: Well, they let this Bajoran officer say thank you to Bashir and look out everyone because if the show is letting [01:12:00] an extra talk They're either being marvelously generous with their budget or we have not seen the last of this little insomniac. 

Lily: he's cute too

Cole: He's actually really cute. I think he's giving me gay vibes and it's a shame 

Lily: He's giving me bi's so we can both, it's fine, never mind. 

Cole: Something for both of us, 

, this little cutie leaves the infirmary and Odo relays his theory to Bashir that these ancient telepathic archives have infected everyone. who was in ops when the Klingon beamed aboard.

Except for Odo, whose non humanoid anatomy rejected the virus, thus his awful shapeshifter migraine back at Quark's. Um, and like, doesn't every single Star Trek show have that one non humanoid character who has to save the day whenever anyone else gets infected. Seven 

Lily: of Nine, Data, The 

Cole: Doctor, , they all work over time on these shows and they do not get enough credit for it, but thank god they're around.

Lily: easier if they were just human and they died like everybody else. And then the 

Cole: entire ship would die and there wouldn't be so many seasons of these shows. 

Lily: Yeah, like that's why we have, Diversity. 

Cole: [01:13:00] yeah, you need a diverse staff. Bashir in his classic Julian Bashir arrogance is like, yeah, but I'm obviously not infected also, a little Bashir poking through, and I love it, Odo does not miss a beat and he just rolls with it, he's like, oh yeah, well of course, but we might be the only two who aren't infected.

And let's use that to our advantage, Bashir. How about we come up with some sort of antidote, and then, uh, you can get power on the station, and Bashir's crazy eyes light up, and he's ready to make this antidote. 

Lily: Odo is very good at manipulating all these people when they were acting. Genius. Kind of like half drunk in whatever state they're in.

Cole: It's like that New York Times journalist at the Trump rally. Who's like, immigrants. Am I right? He's good. 

Lily: Yeah. 

Cole: Well, up and ops. who's that handsome officer going to give a report to Sisko why it's that little cutie insomniac Who's not actually an insomniac, but he's using whatever Bashir gave him to try to assassinate Sisko by sticking a needle in his neck 

Lily: Sisko's [01:14:00] ready.

Cole: what goes down next is actually really rough and violent and kind of hard to watch? 

Lily: Everything that happens in this scene is, trigger warning, very violent, and scary. 

Cole: the poor extra, gets the life beaten out of him by Sisko, like hurls down into some With like the flat 

Lily: palm? It's like very, jitsu kind of flat palm into the chest it's scary. Star 

Cole: Trek's favorite mode of contact. Do you think they teach that at Starfleet Academy, the like, jiu Yeah, they must. 

Lily: Absolutely. But the scariest thing that happens is, when O'Brien Dax. 

Cole: cause Dax tries to alert Kira, that the assassination attempt went awry, and O'Brien just wallops her in the face.

Lily: Backhands her and it's very, I don't know, it's a choice. A man backhands a woman, that's a choice on screen. 

Cole: it's scary to see, Sisko is moments from killing that poor extra. 

Lily: Oh yeah,. 

Cole: Kira and her cronies come to his rescue in the nick of time, blazing into ops with phasers. you gotta wonder, when all is said and [01:15:00] done at the end of this episode, how did Commander Sisko apologize to this poor chap?

I mean, like, hey, sorry that, I almost beat you to death by accident. Maybe have some mental health leave for that? I, I don't know. It's 

Lily: For sure. But he did No harm, no foul. kind of plan to assassinate. His, you know, kill This guy 

Cole: Look, everyone was under Iago's influence here, so I guess we can all move on

Lily: It's true. 

Cole: O'Brien and Sisko elude Kira's clutches Ops. Turns out it Dax's job to disable the transporters, but oops, she forgot, which is adorable. 

Lily: I'm such a ditz. dip.

Cole: o'Brien and Sisko, they're trying to escape the station and get onto the Valerian's ship because the Valerians have promised them, transport back to Federation space.

But, no one saw this little trick coming. They take off their comm badges so Kira and Dax can't trace them. Ingenious! No one has ever seen that little trick on Star Trek before. No, 

Lily: you just assume the person is attached to their tracking device. 

Cole: They always figure it out too late.

O'Brien and Sisko message Odo, hoping he'll help them escape. he, he plays the [01:16:00] fool, tells them to head to a cargo bay. At the same time, Odo rats them out to Kira, and tells her she can find them in the cargo bay. He is playing both sides. he's on fire. 

Lily: he is. 

Cole: so it all goes down in the cargo bay where all of our Dramatis Personae converge.

 So, this is how it all ends, emotes Sisko when he's cornered

The end. in, Undeniable proof that this episode is a tribute to Macbeth and Shakespeare.

Sisko makes the most beautiful monologue you've ever heard to Kira and all actors present. Do you write this down? You can do this if you want. 

Lily: No, no, you do it. You go, you go, girl. 

Cole: He says to Kira, The ingratitude I offered you, my kindness, my help, my leadership, and how do you repay me?

With betrayal. But unlike you, I understand history. My name will blaze across the stars long after your Petty treacheries. Hmm. Petty. We've heard that word before. 

Lily: Yeah, we have. 

Cole: Petty [01:17:00] treacheries have been forgotten. Oh, eat your heart out, Avery Brooks fans. Also, Dear viewer, I invite you to watch this monologue back to back with the Avery Brooks monologue at the end of Far Beyond the Stars, Season 6, when his character is having a mental breakdown.

So, uh, the stuff Avery does when he's going insane, he does this, he like strums his head with his fingers like he's a crazy man, because he is, and it's all there. And we love it, but before any bloodshed Odo comes in, releases the antidote that Bashir has made, Everyone keels over in very campy migraine reactions and a lilac colored mist oozes out of all of their brains.

Yeah. Odo yells at everyone to hold on to something tight. He opens the cargo bay doors and this matrix gets sucked out into space. 

Lily: And we all love a dramatic airlock scene. It makes us think [01:18:00] about who we are as people and what we love most about it is, that Dax's luscious ponytail comes free because the airlock pulled it out.

Cole: Lily, when you get more drunk, do you get more of a crush on Terry Farrell? 

Lily: Disagree, that crush is always there. I just talk about it more. 

Cole: Everyone survives Everyone's back to themselves, and Odo says, with maybe a bit of indignation, Welcome back, everybody! 

Lily: And there's a part of you that thinks he liked being the only rational person, like clearly the only rational person. think that he often feels like he's the only rational person. Like him having martial law makes sense to me, cause he's like, I'm the only rational person. being within this whole system 

Cole: that's such a good call. he's happiest when he can exist in black and white and it was very clear that they were all the enemy and he had to fix them all. You're right, he had a field day. He had the time of his life this episode. 

Lily: He had a great time and I would argue some of the other characters [01:19:00] had a pretty good time too. 

Cole: Well, let's, finish one last scene and then discuss. who was having a blast this episode. 

Lily: All right, let's go. 

Cole: we've got a coda back in Sisko's office. Kira drops in and, uh, Sisko's golden clock is done. And Kira is hell impressed by it.

Lily: As you would be, looks beautiful..

Cole: I think you can buy this clock, FYI. she offers Sisko an apology for, you know, that attempted mutiny, saws. Sisko gives her a pass and all is resolved, no mention at all of the Valyrians, no mention of how maybe their actual interpersonal tensions might have made it very easy for that virus to spin things out of control.

No, no, no, we're not here for actual character insights, we're here for looking at this beautiful clock. 

Lily: The diplomatic insight, nothing to know about that, it just happened, the end. 

Cole: ugh, it's a huge wasted opportunity because I find the Sisko Kira tensions compelling, worth exploring,

Lily: Yeah. 

Cole: and episode uses those as a baseline, but then does nothing with them.

The opportunity for character development is completely swept under [01:20:00] the rug, which is annoying, leaving it to us. the uh, Odo like observers to really see what's going on beneath the surface.

Yeah, it's true. And then the final shot of this episode really hints at those Shadows and layers of TV acting and you know that that triple layer cocktail 

Lily: because 

Cole: Sisko is just absorbed by this magnificent clock he made and he's Holding the tool in his hand and he's marveling at what he made and it's really not too far removed from His alter ego, who made the clock.

And so, much of Sisko was there? How much of that crazy Emperor Rudolph is still there? these are the questions. 

Lily: I think it's always there. I think every, every part of what they exhibited was always there. I mean, nothing they do is completely out of character 

 And I think everyone sort of enacts the, unconscious parts of their social desires that [01:21:00] play out.

Lily: I mean, I think that, Sisko is avoidant. I think that he when it comes push, come to shove, he will ruthlessly fight . And I think that's what, what plays out. but I do think his main, mode is avoidance. And I think that's what we see in the episode.

Cole: Totally. 

Lily: I think O'Brien is combative. I think that he's racist and sexist. And, I think that his unconscious, desires or perspectives, uh, pretty conservative and also paranoid and things that align themselves with someone that would, Behave the way that he does Dax, well, she has so many lifetimes. Of course, she's lost in reverie. Of course, she's lost in nostalgia. Why wouldn't you be? so say there's an entity that's asking you to consider history.

their particular history and play it out in a certain way, and she's just like lost in this nostalgia and the [01:22:00] first person who asked her, can you be in my team?

She just says, yeah, yeah, we'll be in your team. And then doesn't think about it any more than that. which is lost in the reverie of, things that she experienced. Um, Bashir, He's not a political animal, but he desperately seeks validation and he desperately seeks to be made relevant.

So he'll, pick the side he thinks is going to win. 

Cole: think it's an arrogant, curious, but naive Bashir. like, his alter ego is exactly the Bashir we've already seen. No, you're right. No, 

Lily: you're right. 

Cole: What about Kira? 

Lily: Kira, well Kira is, she's so obvious. She's, combative and she's, in guerrilla warfare since she was a child, 

Cole: she,

is she manipulative? 

Lily: I think, She wants to be, but she's not. 

Cole: I think she's way too earnest. 

Lily: She's trying, but she just can't pull it off.

Cole: She doesn't have the guile to be master Machiavellian manipulator. And I think maybe, I think maybe that's what she got from this telepathic sphere, was this Machiavellian strategy. 

Lily: Okay, 

Cole: you don't think so? You think it's all her? 

Lily: Uh, I [01:23:00] just don't think the strategy works very well. 

Cole: Okay, so both Kira and her alter ego this episode were horrible manipulators 

Lily: Yes 

Cole: resorted to speaking from the hip. That's a good call because she failed. I think so. 

Lily: Her attempts at manipulation fail. 

Cole: She just started shooting phasers. And that's the closest she got to overthrowing Sisko. Lily, how would you rank this podcast episode, alongside all of our others in terms of squeezing way more out of the actual episode than was there to begin with? 

Lily: I think there was so much there. I don't know what you, I never know what you're talking about because I think there's so much there.

Cole: Great. You know, it was a genuine question. It's a 

Lily: rich 

Cole: text. I, it is a rich text. I just, um. 

Lily: Four hours in, you're wondering what happened. 

Cole: Look, this recording has been a lot of sound and fury, but I think it has signified quite a bit. 

Lily: Something. It's signified something.

Cole: okay. I think we can completely disregard Fashion Watch this [01:24:00] episode. 

Lily: What? No, I will be doing Fashion Watch. 

Cole: All right. 

Lily: Obviously it goes to white jumpsuit, purple. and Tufties. And it's, not just because we love the Muppets. It's because it's a great outfit and I love white on purple. 

Cole: maybe I'm selling it short. I think she was looking fabulous.

she or he was looking fabulous 

I think this episode might win all prop watch for all time, like for the rest of the series, which is why I don't need to give a lot of time to fashion watch.

It's the clock. that clock that Sisko made is so beautiful. it in fact sits in Sisko's office the rest of the series. You see it in the background because Benjamin Sisko, like us, acknowledges aesthetics and is like, I'm gonna keep this clock that crazy me made.

under the influence, and we get to enjoy it the rest of the series, as we should. 

Lily: And like, we've all been taken by the mood sometime and made something weird, and then been like, I will honor myself by keeping that theme, right? 

You done that? 

Cole: Wait, say that again? 

Lily: Let me tell you this story, Col. One time. I was in Ubud, in Bali, [01:25:00] and I went to a silversmithing course, and I made myself a pendant for a necklace in the shape of an R and it's a big silver R and it stands for Rossin 

Cole: Hmm.

That's your last name 

Lily: And I put it on a chain and sometimes I wear this chain with an R on it and everyone's like, that's a weird thing to wear.

And I'm like, well, I made it this one time when I was crazy. Um, and that's how, that's how I feel. He feels when he looks at that 

Cole: clock. You've been there. 

Lily: It's like one time you were manic and you made this thing and you were like, that was weird, and then you're like, no, it's good, it's good.

Cole: um, before we wrap things up, I thank your analysis of all the characters and how actually their craziness episode was there all the time, it was like latent craziness. really speaks to your whole point about mass hysteria. Like, mass hysteria is not some cloud that descends on everyone and makes them crazy. 

It's the crazy that's there all along and some catalyst brings it out of all of us. something triggers it. And then, the paranoia, the [01:26:00] groupthink, the Us versus them, manifests, which is a pretty scary thing. 

Lily: And manifests in ways you might not understand.

Cole: Yeah. 

Lily: Psychologically, physiologically, socially you might not, completely understand what you're doing. And I think that we all make choices based on these things day to day. and then in times of stress and panic, that's when the potential things that we're repressing come to the fold 

Cole: So I think chugging a magnum of shibli is sort of like having a telepathic sphere infect your brain and bring out the worst sides of you, or the best, depending on how you look at it. 

Lily: Ooh, 

Yes. 

So the telepathic spheres that infiltrated the brains DS9 crew are the same as the 2018 shibli that entered my bloodstream and made me the way I am right now. Um. 

And Look, I'll be interested when I listen to this episode to find out what kind of character I become 

Cole: yeah. 

. 

. 

Lily: just never let me loose [01:27:00] off the leash again.

Cole: impossible. . 

Lily: I promise to never do this again, uh, in this season. 

Cole: nah, I must be living correctially to be so blessed to do this podcast with you..

Lily: Oh, stop, 

Cole: Um, Next week is .

Considered one of the greatest Star Trek episodes of all time. Not just greatest Deep Space Nine all time. So, it's going to be doozy, . 

 I will see you and all our listeners for Duet next The time has come. 

Lily: Cute. 

Cole: All right, let's do 

Lily: Um, I 

Cole: hope magnum of Shibley. 

Lily: think I'm gonna just, drift away like a, What will I drift away like, Cole?

Cole: Like that, lilac, telepathic energy mist 

Lily: yeah 

Cole: that drifted out into space.

Lily: ghosties be gone. Just like my, conscious mind straight into my unconscious. 

Cole: Exactly. Until next time, everyone. Bye.