...The Rest Is Drag: THE FORSAKEN (1.16)

Get your Kleenex ready - it’s time for the episode that makes all of us melt into a puddle. And if you haven’t got your pail nearby, thank the drag gods that Lwaxana Troi is here to scoop you back up. Lily and Cole deep-dive into Lwaxana’s drag queen energy, what her fabulousness brings to the comparatively sterile world of Star Trek, and particularly what her arrival means for queer-coded self-acceptance on DS9. We also pay tribute to actress Majel Barrett, First Lady of Star Trek.

🪕 Intro music: Lily on ukulele and vocals, "I Am a Rock" by Simon & Garfunkel 

🍷 Wine pairing: Beaujolais 'Les 3 Roches' from Pierre-Marie Chermette

❤️ Find us: On Instagram @deepspacewine_podcast or Facebook @Deep Space Wine

Transcript

...The Rest Is Drag: The Forsaken (1.16)

Lily: [00:00:00] I have my books

and my poetry to protect me I am shielded in my armor I am shielded Hiding in my room, safe within my room. I touch no one and no one touches me. I am a rock. I'm an island and a rock Feels no pain. And an island. Never cries. And we're live. welcome to [00:01:00] Avoidant Attachment Anonymous. This is Lily Rossin. 

Cole: Gorgeous. 

Lily: Yeah, when you asked me to play that, have been practicing that song since my mid to late 20s. Have 

Cole: you really? 

Lily: It's a bit of an anthem. say what it will. 

 Hi everyone. 

Lily: welcome to Deep Space Wine, a podcast that attempts to recap and decode every episode of Deep Space Nine, the forgotten stepchild of the Star Trek universe.

Every episode, we'll share a bottle of wine, wind down, and then wind ourselves up again with our strong opinions about DS9. Because in our social experience, there is nothing people love more than when someone talks at length about Star Trek or wine. 

Cole: Or, daughter of the fifth house, holder of the sacred chalice of Rix, heir to the holy rings of Beta Zed.

Lily: Um, I mean, I know I flippin love it. 

Cole: obsessed with it. 

Lily: I'm obsessed with her.

Cole: What an icon. 

Lily: What a queen. did we know this before this episode? hard to think of past [00:02:00] me and how I felt about Lwaxana Joy. 

Cole: think a lot of. Star Trek fans have a, complicated relationship with her. I've been doing a rewatch of all of her episodes on The Next Generation over the last few weeks.

And even this show doesn't really know if it wants to idolize or demonize her. , 

Lily: I have so much to say about her and I'm not sure if we should get into it.

Now or in the episode. Maybe I'll just say, yes, she's a polarizing character, but she makes you interrogate your own feelings about gender, age, sexuality, I don't know the way that she exists as a character within the Star Trek world, which is so sexually repressed.

Oh, she's just so interesting and great and, cringe and cheesy. , she contains multitudes. I'll tell you what. 

Cole: I mean, we've talked about how sterile the Star Trek universe is. She is one of the only characters who's allowed to have a sex drive.

Lily: Yeah! 

Cole: And most of the time she gets shamed for it, especially early on. the second time she ever [00:03:00] shows up on the Enterprise, she's literally in heat. She's in like Betazoid menopausal heat. 

Lily: yeah, that's problematic.

Cole: and she systematically works her way through propositioning every single male on the ship. 

Lily: I mean, 

Cole: but then as the show goes on, the writers stop shaming her, and they realize what a crucial breath of fresh air she is.

Lily: Yeah, and look, let's be fair, I think, There are some things that happen in the early seasons of Next Gen that are better left forgotten. 

Cole: I'm sure I don't know what you mean. 

Lily: Come on. 

Cole: we should talk a little bit about Barrett, who is an amazing actress, especially in this episode.

for, anyone who doesn't know, she's called the first lady of Star Trek. She was married to Gene Roddenberry for decades. She was, cast as the original number one on the very first pilot episode of Star Trek back in 1965. But Paramount Studios thought it was way too [00:04:00] wild to have a female first officer, so they settled on an alien instead, because that's more realistic.

Lily: Yeah, but imagine a world where she was the first officer. 

Cole: Yeah. What could have been, huh? I guess we've got Mm-Hmm. They finally, her character was resurrected on strange New Worlds, and now 

Lily: Yes. 

Cole: Rebecca Roma plays that original number one but instead she got recast as, nurse chapel on the original series.

Mm-Hmm. . And, also on the modern chosen in the nineties, of course, she was the voice of the Starship computer. 

Lily: It's a great voice. 

Cole: it's a great voice, and she was the voice of the computer, up until her death in 2008. it's kind of a fun fact because sometimes, she even talks to herself.

There's scenes where Lwaxana is talking to the computer, 

Lily: Oh, great! 

Cole: yeah, it's fun. But also, the fact that she has played the computer voice is kind of fun to think about for the discussion of this episode in particular. So just a nugget to hold on to. 

Lily: You heard it here. Lovely. 

Cole: and a quiz question for you, Lily, do you know where Majel Barrett's [00:05:00] ashes are today? 

Lily: No. Somewhere fabulous? 

Cole: Somewhere appropriate, perhaps, for her legacy a writer? The First Lady of Star Trek. 

Lily: tell me, 

Cole: Her ashes are currently floating somewhere in space alongside those of Gene Roddenberry's and several cast members of the original series, including Michelle Nichols. into space in January 2024 and it actually ran out of batteries before it could land on the moon. So, it's actually, their remains are going to be floating through space for eternity. 

Lily: I love that. 

Cole: Yeah, their son, Rod Roddenberry, says it's actually sort of perfect, uh, poetic.

 , 

Cole: And guess the last fun thing about her role as Lwaxana is that her son, confirms that the role was designed for her.

 role was built entirely around her, and he says, quote, if anyone wants to know who my mother was, 100 percent like Lwaxana Troi. 

Lily: Oh, I love that. 

Cole: She had the strength Lwaxana had, spoke her mind like [00:06:00] Lwaxana, but was also tender and loving, just as she is with so many characters. 

Lily: Yeah. She really is.

Oh my gosh, I just remembered the episode where she's really kind to Worfs. Poor son, Alexander. 

Cole: Exactly. 

Lily: Oh, poor Alexander. 

Cole: I mean, these, these places needed Waxana desperately. 

Lily: And they did.

Cole: That episode's amazing because Deanna Troi is trying to counsel her way through the world.

She's trying to, like, be this useful counselor for Worf and Alexander, like, have you guys tried making lists of your conflicts with each other? And Lwaxana comes in and she's like, that is boring as hell and useless. kid, come with me to the holosuite. We're going to take a mud bath because we both deserve it.

Lily: Yeah. Oh man. I wish she was my mom slash grandma slash life partner. I don't know what I want from her. I mean, we do want women to be all things, don't we? I want her, oof, 

Cole: like maybe fabulous grandma who I can talk about my love life with. 

Lily: Yeah, I mean she's the ultimate optimist as well isn't [00:07:00] she?

looking for love thinks she's going to find it. 

Cole: there's also something heartbreaking about her. 

Lily: Yeah,

Cole: Once the show starts tapping into who she really is there's a lot of sadness. She's experienced quite a lot of tragedy, and the older she gets, as just an older woman in society, she has to deal with, feelings of being forsaken, 

Lily: perhaps?

Ooh, yes, the forsaken. the name of this episode, did we mention that? 

Cole: What? episode 16, The Forsaken. 

Lily: I was going to call this episode Wigtastic, but, 

Cole: you 

Lily: each to their own. 

Cole: Look, this podcast had any reason to exist, it was to recap this episode in particular, 

Lily: I'd like to think.

It's fabulous. It's just a treat for all the senses, isn't it? 

Cole: Yeah, 

Lily: exactly. 

Cole: Let's see. briefly introduce my, my little, thesis? Yeah, yeah. 

Lily: Tell me your thesis. I Hit me. 

Cole: I argue that this episode heralds the arrival of an unsung queer icon to DS9. But I am not talking about Lwaxana Troy. [00:08:00] Ooh! Gotcha there, gotcha there, didn't I? Because, I mean, we all know, we all know Lwaxana is mm hmm, I personally want Lwaxana Troy to be like the grand dame of a gay pride parade, absolutely.

But I'm actually talking about Odo. Yeah, it's been said many times that the Ferengi and Quark are sort of 20th century humans But in my essay, I will argue that Odo is a 20th century queer human 

Lily: Yeah. 

Yeah. 

Cole: Right? 

Lily: Sorry,

were you expecting some arguments? I'm so on board. Keep going. No, no.

Because we've, 

Cole: we have dipped into this before, but I think this is the episode where Odo's journey sort of begins in earnest. I think today Dax gets a lot of attention as a sort of trans icon. But to me, Odo exemplifies this powerful, unrealized, unique potential of selfhood waiting to bloom. And 

Lily: that 

Cole: journey towards his true self starts here. and thank [00:09:00] God, Lakzana, um, A fellow queer icon in her own right is there get things started. 

Lily: Love it. 

Cole: Um, as a framework for our discussion. Yes. There were a few different strings to tug on in this episode, a few different potential directions I thought we could go. the episode is giving a little Cinderella.

It's giving a little Cinderella. Space Odyssey. Uh, it's also sort of set up as a double rom com, a la cinematic classic The Holiday. 

Lily: Ooh. 

Cole: which character is Cameron Diaz? Who's Kate Winslet? Discuss. 

Because of course Odo and Lwaxana's storyline is one of several intersecting storylines in the episode. I think there's multiple characters who could be the forsaken character of the title. That's true. And so I decided the best way for us to, tease out all the connections between these different characters, was for me to just present, two different, ideas from two modern day thinkers, just for us to hold onto and chew on as we discuss.

So, [00:10:00] very briefly, I want to first present the Inner Chimp Management Model by Psychiatrist Steven Peters. 

Lily: Uh, 

Cole: brief disclaimer, the creators of this podcast do not necessarily affirm or endorse any of these ideas I'm about to present. I'm merely relaying them here for contemplation. Okay, 

Lily: yeah. 

Cole: So, the inner chimp management model is, a mind management tool.

tool to help you become a healthy, confident, more successful person. Professor Steve Peters says, let's think of the brain as a machine. Can we train it to work the way we want it to all the time and be who we want to be all the time? Can we train our emotions to be exactly how we want to think and feel?

And he says, to do this, we can think of the brain as having three Component systems. the computer, the inner chimp, and the human. 

Lily: Okay. 

Cole: computer system is a reference source. It stores memories, it stores core beliefs, the [00:11:00] inner chimp system is the emotional system that thanks and acts without our permission. It's a primitive system which we have no control over. It works on drives and instincts for surviving in the jungle. It's impulsive and can get us in trouble. 

Lily: Sure sounds Freudian, 

Cole: but continue.

Mm Yeah, look he didn't come up with stuff out of thin air and then the third system he calls the human system and that is the real person the human is rational Conscious it is you only you can decide who to be and how you would like to live your life Therefore its basis is facts and logic 

Lily: So 

Cole: that's the secret to a successful life, Lilly, 

Lily: Wait, I thought the secret was the secret. 

Cole: That's so last week. Oh my god. 

Lily: All right, on to the next one. Finally, 

Cole: the second great thinker of our time I want to introduce is RuPaul. 

Lily: Yes

Cole: Drag queen [00:12:00] extraordinaire. And, simply one of his most famous quotes, we're all born naked and the rest is drag.

Lily: I love that. I love that. And it leads so well into. my little tidbit of discussion that I want to have about this episode, 

Cole: Great, please.

Lily: which is, , I drag as a concept, drag as a construct, and potentially, Yeah, maybe some of the characters being exactly as RuPaul describes. 

They're born naked and the rest is drag. 

Cole: I'm so glad you're with me there. Yeah. 

Lily: Yes. yeah, I mean, definitely the main contender is Lwaxana. Yeah, potentially odo as well. so yeah. how much do you know about drag? 

Cole: I, uh, look, when I'm having a bad day, I do binge RuPaul's Drag Race.

Lily: Yeah. Who doesn't 

Cole: Right, 

Lily: I suppose my first experience with drag was, Priscilla, Queen of the Desert. 

Cole: Yes. Australians were really head of the curve on, uh, drag queens on film.

Lily: So I saw that when I was a mere child and it was just [00:13:00] fabulous. And there was no, I don't know, I feel like The 80s and 90s was still a pretty homophobic time. and the film definitely delves into that and maybe their, treatment of the transgender character is a little bit outdated and, but yeah, it was fun and fabulous and amazing.

And like you say, turning pain into art and joy, 

Cole: For any listeners who aren't familiar with Priscilla, could you give a quick summary or recap of it? 

Lily: three, amazing drag queens, set out on, and a cross country tour of Australia on like big fabulous silver bus. and they sort of head into rural towns and small local towns. and in some cases that doesn't, go very well. In other cases, they just, are loved and adored by the townspeople.

 Have you seen it? 

Cole: I have. It's almost like a bright, colorful, happy drag queen goes to a remote outpost and brings joy and self acceptance into this frontier town. I don't know if you know any [00:14:00] other stories that sort of tell that tale.

Oooooh, 

Lily: I see what you did there. 

Cole: Priscilla, Queen of the Alpha Quadrant. 

Lily: Oh my god, is she ever? but yeah, drag, it has pretty ancient roots. It's sort of been around forever in, some form or another. people dressing as the opposite sex uh, how do I describe that? 

Cole: Well, yeah, drag at its most basic definition is, dressing up as the opposite gender. 

Lily: Yes. 

Cole: To perform or entertain. And that's, yeah, that's the big difference between , a trans person, and a drag queen. drag is a form of entertainment. 

Lily: Yeah. and I think, a form of, in sort of more recent years, a form of like intersectional expression, because it has, involved the transgender community.

It has involved the, African American and Latino communities. and if anyone has seen the 1990 documentary, Paris is Burning, 

Cole: hmm.

Lily: directed by Jenny Livingston, it, I think maybe it, mainstreamed. Ballroom culture, which, um, 

Cole: Madonna

[00:15:00] grabbed by the horns and turned into a number one hit.

Lily: Exactly. 

voguing, 

That's how everyone knows about voguing. Yeah. But yeah, it, was these groups of societies. Kast to the side also looks down upon sort of finding this joy in dressing in drag and performing and being in these pageants. yeah, then I, I also did like a little bit of reading because obviously drag has changed and I think it was more predominantly gay men that did it.

were involved in drag. 

Cole: Mm. 

Lily: and there's been like a little bit of, within the community, like a little bit of friction between, transgender, people competing, women competing. but I think it, it's becoming a little bit boring. Yeah. Straight men. Exactly. Yeah. I think it's becoming a little bit more, inclusive.

Cole: Mm 

Lily: and. Because I was thinking about the character of Lwaxana Troi, I did a little bit of research on women who perform in drag. and they're given, given the name, faux queens or, bio queens. And, 

Cole: Bio queens. 

Lily: yeah, there's, there's actually a dancer and [00:16:00] performance artist called Phoenique. her, real name is Monique Jenkinson, and she was the first female drag queen to win a major drag pageant.

 , she won, miss T Tranny Shack in 2003. , 

Cole: miss T. Tranny Shack. 

Lily: Yeah. But she has, , it is an interesting perspective. She, sums up drag and she says. This drag comes down to a sort of self awareness, a self consciousness about playing around with femininity, as well as also being a rejection of traditional oppressive forms of masculinity.

And that's sort of part of the affinity with gay men that women have. So I think for someone like I think there is, the idea of that performance and playing with femininity. And, yeah, I think that sort of comes into her character a lot as well, and arguably into Odo's, if you think about, performance and maybe even traditional forms of masculinity.

Cole: Oh, because the other direction I thought could go. for this discussion was, of course, gender roles and gender norms, because there's so much, traditional femininity [00:17:00] clashing with traditional masculinity in this episode. but I think, and we can talk about that, but, it's all performed.

And what's interesting to me is, how intentionally the characters choose to perform this, and how happy those performances. make them because, drag, drag is a choice that drag performers make. And, there's a few reasons that they do. one is to explore their own identity. You were talking about the relationship between drag and trans people and actually over the course of, RuPaul's Drag Race, the last decade or so it's been on, quite a few drag queens have discovered their trans identities through their, their drag persona and realizing just how core, femininity is to who they are.

And it's been this journey of discovery. Then another reason drag performers do it is, happiness. like Lwaxana Troy, they've, experienced, a lot of pain and loneliness and isolation and rejection and they choose, they choose joy and bubblegum wigs exuberance and [00:18:00] flamboyance.

and you see the Waxana making that choice, uh, every day. And I think that's why she's a drag queen to me. 

Lily: Yeah, oh, I love her. Right? 

Cole: I did not realize how much I loved Lwaxana 

Lily: before this 

Cole: episode. 

Lily: Oh my god. Alright, should I quickly talk about the wine? 

Cole: Yes, please. 

Lily: tonight we will be drinking a 2017 Beaujolais.

this is from a producer called Pierre Marie Schumet. and this is from the Moulin Avant, which is the Appalachian, the region, and this is the L'Etoile Roches, and I'm so sorry for the pronunciation, but there it is. I'm Australian. 

Cole: You could fool me 

Lily: So this is a Beaujolais crew, crew de Beaujolais, which we haven't done that yet, have we?

We've done a Gamay, but we haven't done a Beaujolais. 

Cole: We've done Gamay. That's right. 

Lily: Yeah. So a Gamay. is the grape that is used in Beaujolais, which is like light bodied, high acidity, and it's quite a thin skinned grape, which is why you get that light body, and, sort of lower tannin. [00:19:00] Beaujolais, Well, it's the region, but it's technically part of Burgundy, but it has a climate more like sort of the Um, I'm not sure he said it, but it's been called the only white wine that happens to be red. And I kind of see, I kind of see what they mean. because it is just so drinkable. it's kind of the red table wine, in France. Beaujolais Nouveau, which is not the same as Beaujolais Cru, but it's very, very popular and has a bit of a bad reputation, because I think historically it's been pretty easy to grow and produce, because you can Grow it, pick it, bottle it, in very quick succession. So I think there's like been a bit of a glut on the market, which often coincides with, a bit of poor winemaking as well. and then there was a really bad year of Beaujolais in 2001. and there was all kinds of controversy attached to it.

I recommend doing some reading cause it's quite funny. a wine writer called it, Meurde, which means, shit wine, essentially. Yeah, I didn't know that word. like court cases and stuff. It's quite funny. What? But yeah. [00:20:00] but yeah, mainly I think does get looked down on, because it's, quaffable, smashable.

 . But what we're drinking is a Beaujolais Cru, which is much more highly esteemed, so this is the Moulin Au Vin, the area that it's from, and these are more like single vineyard or small vineyard, where they grow it and produce it. and it's very terroir driven, and, yeah, so the, Beaujolais, crew, a little bit more interesting, a little bit more tannin and they also age better. so the, so the other kinds of Beaujolais, you just have to drink them straight away.

There's no point aging them, but these you can, you can leave them for a while and, potentially they, get better with age. maybe a little bit like a certain Betazoid 

Cole: we know. 

Lily: Aging 

Cole: better than any of us. 

Lily: Exactly. 

Cole: So 

Lily: I'll just quickly take us through a couple of notes. This is from the producer and , this is really great.

They talk about the robe, the nose and the mouth. And I think maybe that's the translation. I don't know if this is a wine term, but by the robe, [00:21:00] they mean like the color and the look of it. Um, yeah, 

Cole: Thank you.

Lily: deep, shiny, limpid Ruby with crimson tints. very thick tears. Do you know what that means?

Cole: What's a tear?

Lily: Well, tears, it's the same as legs in wine. 

Cole: What are legs? 

Lily: you never heard people talk about legs? Got some legs? I feel like we're, 

Cole: we're judging a drag queen's get up. 

Lily: I know, isn't it great? so basically if you have wine in the glass and you swirl it, You'll see the way it, like sort of the viscosity of how it, pulls in the glass.

Cole: Yep. 

Lily: so tears or legs is sort of what that the viscosity is describing. So with this one, it's got like, a kind of thick viscosity. So when you, swish it or like pour 

Cole: it, you'll Tears and legs are sexier words than like streaks. 

Lily: Streaks. Exactly. Yeah. No one wants to talk about streaks.

That's disgusting, Cole. Um, all right. So on the nose, the nose is intense with red fruit scents that include raspberry, cherry, blackberry, and blackcurrant [00:22:00] partner with hints of violet and iris. and this is quite particular with Beaujolais, you get all those fruits as well as the sort of floral violet, is quite common.

 and then the mouth is refined and racy with a full rounded and fleshy juicy fruit attack. and I like to think that's a translation that went wrong, but I'm going to start using that. 

Cole: Fruit attack. it's a fleshy juicy 

Lily: fruit attack.

Cole: I'm trying to decide if that's a drag queen's name or 

Lily: yeah. Yeah. 

 so that's the wine. Beaujolais. 

Cole: Amazing. I don't 

Lily: think it'll be the last Beaujolais that we drink, just putting that out there.

Shall I? 

Cole: can we please? 

Lily: I did open this earlier to give it some breathing. cheers!

Cheers Mine is delicious. 

Cole: Oof. it's really sharp. really good. it sharp? 

Lily: Yeah, 

Cole: it's like, a really berry and a bite of tart cheese all at once. 

Lily: Yeah, it's got that savoriness as well, doesn't it? 

Cole: it's so good. 

Lily: the [00:23:00] gamay grape. is a combination.

And this is quite ancient. The Gamay grape was a combination between Pinot and some kind of ancient, white varietal that doesn't exist anymore. so it was like a crossbreed between the two. So it's got similar characteristics to a Pinot Noir, but it's just, like so much better.

Cole: Yeah. It's actually one of the best wines I've ever tried. Great. 

Lily: Love that. 

Cole: Delicious. 

 Um, Billie, have you ever figured out what your drag name would be if you did drag? 

Lily: Oh my god, I'm gonna be thinking about that till the end of this episode. 

Cole: Yeah, just something for us to ponder. I think we both need drag names. 

Lily: Well, I think I would maybe have to be a drag king as well. that would be more fun for me. 

Cole: Have you ever done drag?

Have you ever dressed up as a drag queen or a drag king 

Lily: I haven't, but when I was, 17 years old, I threw a party that the theme was the movies. and the only reason that I had that theme is because I wanted to dress up as Tom Cruise from Risky Business. Mm. 

Cole: in Whitey tidies?

Lily: In Whitey Tidies, like, I [00:24:00] had short dark hair at the time. The like long socks. 

Cole: my gosh. The white 

Lily: T-shirt. the microphone. so maybe amazing. I have seen maybe that is my drag king persona. I dunno. I have to cut my hair again, 

Cole: that's a good ones. 

Lily: It's all about wigs. 

Cole: It's all about wigs.

Lily: Yeah. and I fit myself into this sort of , , pink power dress, and, with my short hair, I really looked Like a Russian assassin, sort of someone who No, um, I like to think it had some glamor to it, actually. I looked like, I looked like I could kill a double O agent, Lily. So 

Cole: I'll show you a photo later, you'll get what I mean. All right, 

Lily: we could put it on the Instagram 

Cole: You know what? probably have to put it on the Instagram. 

Lily: You're welcome, everyone. All right, should we, uh, should we do it? 

Cole: Let's do this. I'm so excited. I've been looking forward to you and me discussing this one for a while.

Lily: Amazing. Sashay away. 

Cole: Sashay away. The [00:25:00] Forsaken. we open on this episode, and we find out, this is going to be one of those really exciting ones where there's a diplomatic time suck. so there's a delegation of federation ambassadors on a fact finding mission about the wormhole.

Lily: and Sisko has the perfect candidate for this mission. 

Cole: Shady 

Lily: and it's Julian it's Julian Bashir. and it's good to know that Sisko seems to be punishing Julian for his numerous offenses. in season one. 

Cole: Oh yeah, Sisko is doing Bashir dirty with this assignment. 

Lily: Nah, I love it. And Sisko's having so much fun doing dirty by Bashir.

It's great. 

Cole: he says Bashir is the perfect one for the job. And it's, doubly cruel because I bet when Bashir first got offered it, he was over the moon. He's like, Oh my gosh, I get to hang out with diplomats for a week. absolutely. but little 

Lily: does he know there are a bunch of Karens.

 Because these, delegates, they are not happy. and we once again get to hear about how crappy the quarters are on DSpace9. I think it comes up once an episode.

Cole: An ongoing motif [00:26:00] how uncomfortable the beds and the quarters are. 

Lily: Like, can they replace the beds? I don't know, 

Cole: Although the, female ambassador, talks about gargoyles on wood poles on the beds. And I mean, that sounds fabulous. A set watch that could have been, you know, 

Lily: maybe they show up at some point. 

Cole: can only hope. 

Lily: so in the delegates, we have, Well, she's kind of the space Karen of this episode. 

Cole: Oh, definitely. 

Lily: this lady is an Arbazan, She's got a little bumpy head. We've got a Bolian and we've got a Vulcan who, even for a Vulcan seems pretty bored and annoyed by what's happening.

now I am aware of, the use of the term Karen. and I want to interrogate that a little bit because I'm using it as a shorthand, but, I'm also aware of, the way that we feel about older women in society and maybe how that reflects upon me, how that reflects upon, society in general and ageism and women of a certain age .

And yes, I do understand that there are women who are white and entitled and horrible, of a certain age. but yes, it, [00:27:00] something to ponder. 

Cole: I've just always been troubled by the term Karen because my uncle's wife was named Karen and I just felt so sorry for her and every other Karen who's a perfectly lovely human out there.

Lily: Mmm.

Cole: can we choose a name that is not an actual name of a lot of like really good people? 

Lily: We can't. That's unfortunately how it is. 

Cole: But it is interesting because Karens, yeah, you're right, they have to be at least, well, I don't know, 45 or older. And I think they've suggested Becky for like the more millennial types of difficult white people.

So there is a bit of ageism in there. 

Lily: And just downright misogyny, So Yeah. 

Cole: where are the names of what do we call white men who are being jerks? 

Lily: Well, I think that we could call them a Karen and that would be funny. 

Cole: Yeah, but we don't. We just let them continue to be jerkish men because men are allowed to be jerks more than women are.

Lily: Preach. 

Cole: That's why I'm a jerk every day. It's, . 

Lily: Yeah, you quit your jerk ways, Paulson. 

Cole: I won't. 

Lily: So she has a fabulous updo, that looks like something that you would have done for a ball in the late 90s slash early 2000s. [00:28:00] Um, and if you're a millennial woman, you know what I'm talking about. 

the Boleyn also has a pretty fabulous gold brocade jacket.

Cole: I'm in love with that jacket. 

Lily: yeah, the jacket's so good. I would 10 wear that. 

Cole: Boleyn's get up is sick and I want it. Granted, I don't have blue skin, so I don't know if it's my seasonal color palette. 

Lily: Mmm. 

Cole: which season is this Bolian? 

Lily: I don't think that it's his.

 I mean, he's blue, so he's got to be some form of winter. So gold, I don't know. He's making it work. Oh, I think 

Cole: it works perfectly with his skin. It really compliments that baby blue cheek. 

Lily: Yeah.

Cole: Troi quote from one of her Next Generation episodes. She says, I adore diplomacy.

Everyone dresses so well. 

Lily: Oh, she's in it. for the fits. I love it. You know what 

Cole: she's there for, yeah. 

Lily: but anyway, apparently this delegation are all pretty peeved that Sisko won't meet with them. Julian gives a half hearted excuse about how the station needs a whole system recalibration, but he's a terrible liar and everyone can see through this.

except for the Vulcan who is pretty interested in this [00:29:00] recalibration because he's boring and stupid. Um, Julian again tries to palm them off with, the offer of a holly sweet and Space Karen is disgusted at the idea of the Ferengi sex programs, and then the Bolian accuses her of being sexually repressed 

Cole: so, I was going to save this for later, but just because I want to remind people of this silly framework I presented, We have these three components of the brain we have these three really difficult ambassadors they're all insufferable in their own way.

and I found it pretty easy to actually, 

Lily: Yeah. I was able to 

Cole: match them to one component. the Vulcan is just pure computer. All he is, is like, Oh, I want to learn about your systems. And he's boring as heck. The bullion has this huge ego and he's convinced that he can fix everything. He's the star of the show. He's just like pure. Self, and Ego, in the Freudian sense.

Lily: Yeah.

Or what the model calls the human component.

Lily: Sure. 

Cole: and then the Arbazon ambassador, she's, just, the epitome of repression, right? stamping out her chimp entirely, 

Lily: uh, just let that chimp flag fly, lady. Just do it. [00:30:00] Girl, 

You'll feel great..

Cole: Karen, let your hair down. 

Lily: but finally we're rewarded with the first sounds and glimpses of our favorite thirsty milf, Lwatsana Troi.

And she looks gorgeous. It's amazing. and that's when we know this episode is gonna be a winner 

Cole: She shows up as a drag queen. 

Lily: Yeah. 

Cole: She's got pink bubblegum hair and her shoulders have wigs too. I mean, 

Lily: it's just, it really is wig tastic. Um, so she's, in a form fitting fuchsia dress. and like Cole said, it has these amazing embellished shoulder pads and I think it's also got ribbons on it. 

Cole: So many ribbons. 

Lily: You know what, after some really fashion dull episodes, we've had a few in a row. Thank goodness she's here. 

Cole: No, Star Trek needs Lwaxana.

We were in a desert. We were in the Australian desert when this drag queen showed up and we could drink again. 

Lily: Like, I was having to get excited about Keiko's bob, you know? I know! What a What Like 

Cole: Literally. Give us 

Lily: something. 

Cole: Squeezing the cacti for drops of water from Keiko's [00:31:00] bob.

Lily: And I was so thirsty, and here she is. and I can swim. 

Cole: 

My

favorite line from this episode.

Lily: I loved it. so yeah, so unfortunately she's lost her latinum hair brooch, and I didn't know that hair brooches were a thing, but now I need to get at least 20 of them. 

Cole: Come on I already have seven, get on it.

No, I 

Lily: don't. we also get some clues about Darbo. she's recounting this. And she said, I had just made my third straight cross. whatever that means add it to the collection of clues about Davo, Davo over the series, and maybe we can turn it into a game by the end.

Cole: Our job is try to figure out how Davo actually works.

Isn't it perfect that the other three ambassadors are just complaining about, their quarters and their schedule and Lwaxana is just gambling 

Lily: Hittin the tables. 

Yeah, I love it. I love her. 

Cole: She's, she's the beautiful wild aunt that I want.

That's it. 

Lily: But like, I feel like she's everything I aspire to be as a person. 

Cole: No, no, you're actually going to be my surrogate fun aunt. I haven't discussed this with you yet, but that's the [00:32:00] plan. 

Lily: I'm younger than you, Cole. 

Cole: irrelevant.

can younger than you. That's I have an Aunt Tammy. She actually, lives in Vegas. she's taken me out to the tables. 

Lily: Tammy! Oh my god, Tammy sounds amazing. How do I not know about 

Cole: Tammy? Aunt Tammy is so much fun. She's a little sister of the family.

And, she takes me out and we have a great time. 

Lily: Oh my god.. 

Cole: And I think she's finally approaching, like, Lwaxana age. I do have an Aunt Lwaxana. 

Lily: You do 

Cole: I'm a blessed man. 

Lily: You don't need me, I can be your peer, it's fine. Ach, 

Cole: if you insist.

Lily: also, very funnily, Lwaxana says, I've been wigged! and I'm like, yeah you have.

Yeah, so she is saying that her latinum hair brooch has been stolen, and Lwaxana grabs Quark by the ear and demands that he deal with it. And, rails off her title. 

Cole did for us so nicely at the top of the episode. 

Cole: Daughter of the Fifth House, holder of the sacred chalice of Rix, heir to the holy rings of Beta [00:33:00] Zed. Thank you. 

Lily: You're not even reading that, I know you just know that. but lo, the knight in shining armor Odo comes to her rescue. and so begins the greatest romance in the entire series, I will argue. 

Cole: I'm, I will not argue back. you hear Odo's voice and the crowd parts like the Red Sea and 

Lily: uh, it's amazing. yeah, so he sort of starts questioning her about whether she, definitely had the brooch in her hair and she says, I never use this hair without it.

Um, and I feel like I'm just going to have to start quoting this lady verbatim. did the show know that they were doing drag and did the audience? because this is, just amazing stuff. 

Cole: that's the question. I guess all we know is that this role was made for Majel Barrett, who was, you know, the wife of the creator and producer of Star Trek, so this was her fever dream, she's like, I want to be an over the top, horny, freewheeling, libertine drag queen, and so She's 

Lily: just, she's such a queer icon, she's like Liza Minnelli or something, she's just [00:34:00] this like 

It's just larger than life,

Cole: She's 

larger than life. 

And she makes no effort to play by everyone else's rules. 

Lily: She really does her. 

Cole: She really does him. Yeah, somehow like both Liza and Waxana are doing the rest of us a service by 

Lily: breaking 

Cole: the rules, you know? And I think maybe that's the definition of a drag queen, like they break the rules so we can all sort of live vicariously through them.

Lily: Yeah. Because 

Cole: I think audience members in drag shows they, they feel this, subversiveness and rebelliousness, but they're just dressed in blue jeans and they get to, they get to ride coattails or the, the wigs of these drag queens. You know? 

Lily: Oh, amazing. so Odo asks if she can sense any guilt in the room, but Betasoids can't raid Ferengis.

, but then Odo scans the room and sees a naughty little goblin in silver pajamas, um, 

Cole: I mean, like racial profiling much? Like who looks sketchy and, you know?

Goblin like. God, Odo. 

Lily: But this guy does have a pocket full of stolen treasures, including the hair brooch, and [00:35:00] apparently dopedarians are distant relatives of Ferengi, which is why Lwoxana couldn't read him. Then, as it turns out, Lwoxana and I share the same kink, and that competent people. 

Cole: yeah. Odo gets his Poro moment, Mr.

Monk moment of brilliant deduction. And Luxai is so turned on. Yeah. 

Lily: She is like, yum yum, give me more of that. She is tased, her wig is tased, and we are tased.

Nah, it's a teaser.

Cole: Perfect. 

Lily: Thank you. then we head straight into some O'Brien torture. He's having literal arguments with the computer , in a moment of extreme hubris, he refuses to read the manual, and it's like, come on man, we all hate building IKEA furniture, but good luck without those weird little amorphous creatures showing you what to do, like, But Sisko comes in and he does some great management telling O'Brien to relax and that it's only a computer O'Brien [00:36:00] claims that this computer is his archnemesis 

Cole: I mean, yeah Sisko. It's only a computer, but let's be real Star Trek is a show that's made for nerds And yeah, sometimes its characters have really Deep intense relationships with their computers. Let's remember most genuine heartfelt friendship on Next Generation was between the engineer Jordi and Data, a robot.

Like this is, Star Trek, people. That's why we need drag queens because otherwise it's like engineers falling in love with computers. 

Lily: Oh my god, Yeah. And the outfits are terrible. We all know that. 

Cole: but O'Brien, like, he's in situationship with this computer.

Lily: He sure is. 

Cole: He and his girl are having some communication issues right now. . Yeah. 

Lily: Um,

Lily: Julian, leads the delegation into ops. and Sisko is visibly irritated to find that they are there. the Arbizan lady manages to get in some complaining about the Cardassian beds, before Dax and Kira alert Sisko to an unidentified vessel coming through the wormhole, which I think is the beginning of a lot of, the [00:37:00] plot devices within Deep Space Nine.

But look, they live at a wormhole. I'll allow it. 

. 

 The Bolian tries to claim that he should be at first contact, but Sisko manages to get Julian to take them to a docking bay to watch the descent of the ship instead. and Sisko just has so much authority and Julian has a lot to learn. and then at the end of the scene, Sisko comically sighs and rolls his eyes, 

Lily: which is always great.

Cole: And I know you love that overacting comical reaction from Avery Brooks. That's totally up your alley now. 

Lily: It's my bag. at the camera all you want. I am here for it. So much mugging. 

Cole: I did appreciate the ambassadors are trying to get Sisko's time.

And so he schedules a briefing at 0400 hours, which is 4am. You're so shady, Sisko. Man.

Lily: Look, he's, he's beyond this. 

Cole: Truly. 

Lily: Meanwhile, Odo is in his office fastidiously doing some paperwork and like a scene from a film noir, the camera pans to show Watsana draped in the in another fabulous outfit. 

Cole: why didn't I get that? It's a film noir.

That's [00:38:00] it. 

Lily: all it would need was like the camera angle coming through the bent leg and it would be the graduate. 

Cole: Yeah, 

Lily: so she's in an icy blue lace and sheer number, like it's got panels that are, that are lace and the rest is sheer sheer. there's also a weaker change, red locks, which are tumbling in this curled updo. and it's amazing and she can wear anything. I will say that she doesn't always dress to her color palette and the wigs are not always to her color palette. But I will allow it because it's so amazing. I don't know what to tell you.

She can wear anything. 

Cole: decided this one with her, skin tight dress and the red hair sort of makes her look like a like a feline ready to pounce like a lioness ready to pounce.

Lily: Yeah. Yeah. She's definitely a predator. 

Cole: exactly. In this 

Lily: scene. she compliments Odo on his passion for his work to which he replies that some people find what he does tedious, but she denies this and says, you are the thin beige line between order and chaos. Oh, good. Is that.

But I love it because [00:39:00] she too has noticed how beige he is, and it's a compliment as much as it is a sick burn. 

Cole: She's nagging him. She's straight up nagging him. She's like, sure. She's nagging 

Lily: him, but also she sees him, you know? 

Lily: and then as she walks around his desk, we see that the skirt is like a full hooped skirt, like you say, sort of like a lion, like she's ready to pounce. 

Cole: like a mane, the dress is like a mane almost.

Yep, 

Lily: it's amazing. And Odo asks if she has lost anything else to which she replies, Only my heart. and her game is like very cheesy, but she always goes exactly what she wants. She does! 

Cole: does. 

Lily: just have to admire it. really have to admire it. Instantly vulnerable with people as much as she's confident and assertive. 

but she does, 

Cole: I mean, she pins him against a wall. She starts circling his communicator as if it's his nipple. Should we give just a little airtime to the, vocal group? Yeah. the vocal, people online who complain you know, the whataboutism of. [00:40:00] What if Lwaxana were a man? She would be, Cancellable. Like, why do we accept Lwaxana's behavior when a man doing what she does would be, you know, beyond the pale? 

Lily: It's a good point. I guess, do we totally accept it? I don't know. How do you feel about it? 

I've just handballed the question back to 

Yeah, 

Cole: thanks, thanks for that. And get ready for a man to put his, foot in it, everyone. I don't think the show, necessarily endorses her behavior. she's not exactly like the hero of the show, is she? But, she is a, she's a marginalized character. 

 I mean, granted she's apparently absurdly wealthy. She's like the nobility of Beta Zed. But she's also an aging single woman, and I think there's a, we've already said , there's a sadness to L which translates into desperation sometimes, and this is an act of desperation, because she's painfully, lonely, Which is not to say, man, I've had a glass of wine and I'm scared about what I'm saying here.

can a middle aged man be, marginalized for his age and lonely? Absolutely. [00:41:00] I am gonna pass the ball back to you again. 

Lily: I guess, look, I guess these things are interesting because, within the power structures that exist within gender norms, I guess particularly in the 90s, it still exists today.

this is not a script that you really see, play out. in film and television and probably to be fair in life. I mean, obviously it does happen. 

but, do I think that Watsana is going to sexually assault Odo? No, he's powerful in his own right. He's a shapeshifter. He could just go out of there at any moment. It's not like he's going to be overpowered by this woman. and I think sometimes you need to look at the power structure that exists, within the context to consider what's actually at stake here.

so, you know, you see, you see a giant hulking man standing over Kira and, doing the same thing to her. it just does tell your brain something different within the power structures that exist. 

Cole: Although, like, hilariously, my dad actually has an issue with the way that Kira can take out any six foot [00:42:00] Cardassian man with, like, two punches.

So maybe that's a little unrealistic, too. 

Lily: Sure.

Cole: But, Lwaxana has a strength of character and a strength of will, and I think that's we admire about her. I think you and I are probably both very grateful she's not our mother, because she did drive Deanna Troi completely insane, , but we appreciate her going after her wants and her needs without hesitation.

Lily: think this is a good time to bring up my other theory about Lwaxana. So, she can read people's minds. Right? Yeah. so, okay, here's my theory about Lwatsana Troi and the mind reading.

So she is kind of always convinced that men want to sleep with her, right? And I think that's because they do. Hear me out. Here we are. She is a good looking woman. 

Cole: Mm hmm. 

Lily: maybe it's not the greatest part of their mind, but maybe it is the, let's call it the animalistic side, the, the Freudian side, the chimp, 

Cole: The inner chimp.

Lily: There's a part of Captain Picard. There's a part of, well, there's definitely a part of [00:43:00] Raka, there's potentially a part of Odo that, wants to, you know, do that thing with Lwaxana Troi. and I think that she, is obviously getting the full gamut of everyone's thoughts and emotions and feelings.

so she would be hearing horrible things constantly. She would be hearing the worst thought crimes that people. And somehow she manages to pass through this and, find the positives in what people are thinking. And one of them is that there's a part of them that wants to sleep with her.

I love this. So that's my, that's my theory. 

Cole: Again, going back to, Doing drag is a choice and it's choosing happiness and joy. 

Lily: If you are, 

Cole: again, imagine being a, an effeminate gay man in society and every interaction you see the homophobia and hatred in people's eyes, but instead you choose to put on a wig and dance away.

Lwaxana can read men's minds and a lot of the time at the fore of their minds is you are an annoying shrewish middle aged woman who I want nothing to do with. 

Lily: But 

Cole: she chooses to look past that [00:44:00] and also that part that's like, also you're curvy and beautiful and fascinating. And that's what she chooses to hear.

Lily: Yeah. Yeah. I love her. She is amazing. 

Cole: Hmm. 

another amazing quote from this scene, this episode is full of amazing quotes. She says, all the men I've known have needed to be shaped and molded and manipulated. Finally I've met a man who knows how to do it himself. Yeah. 

Lily: Yeah.

I mean, she's so honest. she puts it all out there. This is who I am. 

Cole: Yep.

Lily: so yeah, after she says that she goes in for the kiss. but Odo pretends to hear the comm calling him and he literally runs away.

but Loksana doesn't seem to mind this. 

Cole: she, 

Lily: she loves the chase. She is kind of a predator and also I need her earrings. So you can put that on the list of presents for me, Cole. 

Cole: Noted. It's a growing list, but thank goodness, December is coming. 

Lily: if anyone needs to know what I need, just prop watch and fashion watch, that's all I got to say. 

I'm easy to buy for. back in ops, O'Brien seems to have come to an accord with the computer. and it seems to be doing what he [00:45:00] wants for now. 

Cole: The computer is not playing hard to get anymore. 

Lily: Odo runs into Sisko's office and tells him he has a problem and it's named Lwoxana. he explains that she seems interested in him. And Sisko is clearly so tickled by this and asks, have you thought of letting her catch you? 

 Sisko suggests a romance, to which Odo replies he has no time, 

Cole: yeah, I have no time, spoken like every closeted gay teen when his aunt asks him why he's single. 

Lily: I'm just so 

Cole: busy with drama club Aunt Tammy, 

Lily: Or every avoidant attachment person. 

Cole: Do you know any of them, Lillie? 

Lily: Never met them, don't know 

Cole: I mean Odo is like , the station's resident emo teenager and he runs straight to daddy 

Lily: for help with his big boy problem. So sweet with him. obviously he's having fun, but it is like a parent talking a teenager through the first romance or the first time someone's interested in them. 

it's gorgeous. 

Odo asks Sisko to tell [00:46:00] Lwaxana to leave him alone, and Sisko,, ribs him a little bit and says that, Odo's afraid of this woman, but not thieves and criminals. But Odo says that he understands thieves and criminals, but doesn't understand Lwaxana. 

Yeah, what 

Cole: do we make of that line? 

Lily: Well, I think it's more that he is used to working in binaries, so he can do good and evil. He can do right and wrong by some kind of, code. 

Cole: but, 

Lily: something as complicated as, , interpersonal relationships is, is It's well beyond him.

And I get it. They're fucking mad. 

Cole: For sure. Yeah. I

Lily: feel you, Sisko replies that he should handle the matter with great delicacy. And then Odo does a teenage eye roll, The emo teenager Haha.

Cole: My mom, one of her favorite lines when I used to go to her as a kid to ask her how to do something like, mom, how, do I, do this tricky thing? Her answer would always be very carefully. says, handle it with great delicacy. Like, all right, mom, dad, don't help. 

Lily: Classic [00:47:00] parent move. So 

Cole: good. 

Lily: look, they all mother and father each other in this TV show. And it's amazing. yes. ugh, do they? The scenes between Odo and Sisko are some of my favourites, I think, particularly in season one. where this dynamic is playing out. 

Cole: I mean, Sisko's big daddy energy is on full display. 

Lily: Yeah, he is a daddy.

Can I say that? I said it. Um You've said it so 

Cole: many times. As if this is anything new, what? 

Lily: I don't know, I'm getting coy, not sure. 

Cole: What is that Beaujolais doing to you? 

Lily: O'Brien, Dax, , and the Bajoran Ensign, who's just in this episode, and you think that she's gonna be important, but it's kind of a red herring, I 

Cole: don't know.

She was meant to be a recurring character because there's another Young, attractive brunette, Bajor, an engineer, later in the season. she was supposed to be the same character, but this actress didn't work out. 

Lily: Right, anyway, so they're assessing the computer's, findings on this probe that's come through the wormhole.

and apparently it has lots of hardware, but this is just for a probe? [00:48:00] How suspicious. Odo creeps trepidatiously onto the promenade, only to be instantly intercepted by Lwaxana in another stunning outfit change. 

Cole: This is a direct homage to Picard on the next generation.

Whenever Lwaxana was visiting, whenever Lwaxana was visiting the Enterprise, he would tiptoe out of the turbo lift and immediately be pounced on by Lwaxana. I love the continuity. 

Lily: I mean, she can read people's minds. She knows where they are. Yeah. So she's in a full length form fitting cherry red dress.

It's got a drop waist and she's got. a blonde wig. and it's like very bombshell. 

Cole: it's so Marilyn Monroe, but it's so simple. It's just simple, elegant beauty. And it's, my favorite of all the outfits. 

Lily: Yeah. She's paired it back. maybe to be less overwhelming, but totally her still. 

Cole: Yeah, it's well, anyways, we can, we can overanalyze her fashions later, but, carefully chose each of her outfits for each of her scenes. 

Lily: They did They did. apparently she has reserved a sexy time, Holly Sweet [00:49:00] at Quartz. And Odo is, terrified of this. He's horrified that Quark knows that. The shame! The shame! tries to fend her off, saying that he has to get to Upper Pylon But she joins him in the turbo lift, saying she always wanted to see an Upper Pylon.

Cole: Is that a phallic reference?

Lily: Definitely. And Odo tries to impress upon Lwaxana that he is in no way physiologically similar to her. and he says, I don't eat. This is not a mouth. et cetera. and every 16 hours he turns into liquid to which she replies, I can swim, she's so good.

Even her 

Cole: delivery Majel Barrett, she knocks this character out of the park. I know. And she's not, she doesn't say it seductively, she just says it matter of factually, like practically. Totally. I can swim. 

Lily: It's just like off the cuff, it's like classic rom com, and in another classic rom com trope, the lift breaks and they're stuck together, oh my gosh, 

Cole: It is the trope iest of tropes but I'm here for it, I mean, , what century do you think playwrights realized that the [00:50:00] best source of drama was to put two unlikely characters, trapped together in a room?

Lily: Yeah. 

Cole: Like ancient Greece? I don't even know. It's the oldest trick in the book. Probably. 

Lily: Yeah. where everything falls away. and you're just two people. , 

Cole: yeah. By the way she, she suggests arranging for a picnic up on the upper pylon, which is, a very tried and true tactic of hers. she invites men to picnics at least two or three times on the next generation.

It's her go to. And she, She absolutely has a type also. She always goes after these stiff, repressed, soft spoken men. 

Lily: Yeah. 

Cole: Which Aunt Tammy, if you're listening, I've seen your dating history. You always go after the Odo's and the Picard's. 

Lily: Tammy, she's getting, she is getting called out this episode. 

Cole: No, I love my Aunt Tammy.

 She knows what she likes. She, she knows how to melt the hearts of those repressed, soft spoken men. 

Lily: The avoidant ones. 

Cole: exactly. 

Lily: Back in Ops, .

Sisko yells at O'Brien to get everything fixed, and I feel kind of bad for O'Brien, because he was kind of like, At the top of the episode, talking about [00:51:00] how the computer's a real problem, and Sisko's all, well, it's just a computer, but justice for O'Brien. 

Cole: The IT guy is always disrespected until the computers break down, and then he's the most important person in the office.

Lily: But Sisko is still, disrespecting him, 

Cole: Yeah. You have to really have the capacity to fall in love with computers to even want this job, I think.

And 

Lily: as a couple of Luddites. you're doing God's work so well done to you. Amen, 

Cole: amen. 

Lily: Kira contacts Odo to inform him that he might be in there for a while, and then they give whatever bogus science y reason for why he can't check shift out of there, and that's why he has to be stuck in there.

. Yeah, but it's also, a setup for an amazing joke later on. the turbolift is full of these electrical currents, and so he would he tried. He would fry 

Lily: himself, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's true. back in the Turbolift, suggests that she and Odo get to know each other, but Odo would prefer to sit quietly 

 and she says she can do that, but after some hemming and hawing, she admits that she can't actually sit in silence and starts to recount the story of when she and her daughter was stuck on the Ferengi cargo ship, did you watch that episode by any chance? I 

Cole: did. Next [00:52:00] Generation season three.

, Minaja Troi, 

Lily: Yeah. but I do wonder if, she can't sit in silence because, she's surrounded by people's thoughts as well. 

Cole: Interesting. 

 Well, but I think this is where the show starts to turn you around on your perception of Lwaxana, in my opinion, because up until this point, yeah, she asserts herself, but to a really annoying and exasperating degree. 

But here she's stuck in a turbo lift. Odo tells her to be quiet because that's, that's what he needs. And she, she's really honest. She's like, Odo, I can't do that. and it's this moment of vulnerability and self awareness where she says, need quiet, but what I need is to talk to you while I'm trapped in this turbo lift and I can't help it.

It's who I am. And it's a sign that she understands and knows herself Yeah. yeah. And then, Once Odo gives her permission to start talking, she goes on and on and on about What happened back on this Ferengi ship and there is the slightest I don't know if you caught it But she says at first it was totally a question of expediency when I made love to him this Ferengi It is wild because [00:53:00] you watch the episode And she is trying to distract this Ferengi kidnapper so that Riker and Deanna can escape but it is not implied at all that she sleeps with him.

Yeah. And here it's implied that she even sort of enjoyed it sleeping with his Ferengi Logzanna is wild and we love it. 

Lily: And you would only hear about it in Deep Space Nine. They would never talk about that in Next Gen. That's such a good 

Cole: call too. Yeah. 

Lily: God, she's amazing.

Cole: But then, of course after she's been ranting about this Ferengi situation ad nauseum, that's when Odo is like, I just wonder how many vaults really are in that exposed circuit in the

Lily: Yeah, but look, that says more about Odo and his, ability to, be in the presence of people talking about relationships and love and sex and his own feelings of shame and loneliness. you know, , it's sort of like a classic misdirect when someone is telling you something about themselves, which might be a bit, you know, vulgar or, crass or, or even just sexually explicit, for someone that is not at all comfortable with [00:54:00] that, perhaps ashamed and repressed, they turn it into something, I don't know, like, 

Cole: Honestly, that's such I mean, 

Lily: Odo, Odo, Moving on, Bashir Sisko, chat about the delegation, And they're in Sisko's office, but it's a shot I hadn't really seen before. and they're sitting next to some really great nineties decor. 

Cole: I was so hoping you would notice the tchotchkes in Sisko's office. 

Lily: So there's what looks like an Alessi kettle.

 and also this like sort of chrome. abstract art piece. 

Cole: Whoa, whoa, whoa. What is an Alessi kettle? What are you on about? 

Lily: Alessi is, like an Italian designer okay, they do all kinds of things. They do like furniture and they do homewares. so there's something that looks a lot like an Alessi kettle. And on this note found a really great Instagram account called Star Trek Design. Um, and so if anyone else is into prop watch and fashion watch, they often actually, find the pieces that have been designed for Star Trek. and if you follow our [00:55:00] Instagram account, I often repost them if I find them pretty.

Cole: That's amazing. 

Lily: You know 

Cole: what I don't know if I told you this, but last Christmas I did find the conical coffee mugs, purple conical coffee mugs that they drink recto geno out of, but It would have cost like 90 to get it shipped from the US to Perth. Like maybe when I'm in the US I'll get one for you, but they do exist.

Lily: Oh my god, Cole. Don't play with me like that. 

I'm 

Cole: sorry, said too much. Forget I ever said that. 

Lily: I want those mugs. I don't know what to tell you. 

Cole: I'll just get you in a lessee kettle.

Lily: No, I've got one. Don't worry. I'll 

Cole: Great. 

Lily: moving on. Julian claims the delegation are dedicated to being unhappy and he calls them the ambassadors of unhappy.

And it all turns out that, as we might have suspected, this is some kind of hazing, that Sisko is doing, putting a young officer with difficult VIPs, and apparently Klaestron, Dax used to do it to Sisko, and now Sisko is passing on the favor to Julian. 

Cole: Mmhmm.

Lily: but that does imply some kind of fondness for [00:56:00] Julian at the same time, because in my experience, you don't, He's the people below you if you don't care about them, 

Cole: wants to knock Bashir down to size but he still sees the intelligence and ambition and potential.

Lily: I'm 

I more just feel like he's taking all these lame ducks under his wing. He's got Odo, he's got Bashir, he's got Kira, 

Cole: But also, he's got Jadzia Dax, and isn't it weird to think about? Like, imagine your boss being reincarnated, and then you are their boss. What would you do if suddenly the boss who hazed you is now your underling?

Lily: Yeah, It's a trip. 

Cole: don't actually go into that too much. No! But, uh, 

Lily: I guess the thing is, he could be putting Dax through the same paces that he's putting Julian, but Julian is so immature, and Dax is not. Yeah. 

Cole: Julian deserves it, Dax does not need hazing, because , she's got 300 years of experience under her belt. 

Lily: but I do think that they're all lost puppies Sisko is taking them in hand and taking care of them.

They're 

Cole: all forsaken young officers. 

Lily: They sure are. Um, 

Cole: you going to talk about Sisko's anecdote from, [00:57:00] when he served under Curzon? Um. 

Lily: go for it, 

Cole: he says, Yeah, I didn't like the job either. In fact, I hit an ambassador who was harassing a young female ensign. 

Lily: Mm.

Cole: which is a bit of a character insight for young Benjamin Sisko. like respect Benjamin 

Lily: Yeah. and it also speaks to his, he has moments of being so controlled and, remind me again of the three brains, 

Cole: computer, chimp, and human.

Lily: Yeah, so I think, it's all really at play for him constantly, and he sort of has a tight leash, a tight restraint on his emotions, Yes, for when he's making decisions. his emotions really play out in his decision making, and you sort of see it time and time again, maybe in a way that you don't see with Picard, 

Cole: That's a great call, cause you're right, it was, it chimp, our psychiatrist professor would argue, that hit the ambassador, but I would argue that Ambassador Deserved should be punched, and Sisko is a deeply emotionally driven person, more so than Picard.

Lily: Yeah, because he's so traumatized those are the [00:58:00] thing he's, dealing with these things, but also sort of understanding the trauma of others in his decision making. and that's why he actually has quite a lot of time for all these lost puppies all these forsaken under his wing. 

Ah, Sisko. Yeah, the best daddy, 

Cole: We've got the best aunt and the best daddy in this episode 

Lily: Like I feel like my chimp is winning and I feel like crying already and we haven't even gotten to the scene But we haven't even gotten to 

Cole: best scenes of this episode and the chimp is ready. 

Lily: I'm so ready I've also had quite a bit of wine 

Cole: helps.

Yeah, the chimp likes some wine 

Lily: Chimp loves wine

Lily: Oh, 

Cole: really quickly, Sisko says that he punched this ambassador. Yes. And you see this crazed glint in Bashir's eyes where he's fantasizing about punching the ambassadors. It's 

Lily: also Julian would never. I 

Cole: no, he wouldn't. He would never. But he's thinking about it. 

Lily: Alright, so Sisko questions O'Brien about the status of the Turbolifts.

O'Brien has a theory that, he explains it as working with, the computer on the Enterprise was like dancing a waltz, but working with this computer has always been like a wrestling [00:59:00] match, , which is , O'Brien then diagnoses the computer with a big old case of neediness. He's like, it just needs so much for me. and maybe. O'Brien is avoidant attachment style. 

Cole: No, exactly. The computer, has anxious attachment issues right now. 

Lily: It's true. 

Cole: I think that makes O'Brien and the computer, like The Kate Winslet, Jack Black of this situation, 

Lily: Oh, the holiday! I forgot about the holiday. Okay, okay, yeah, yeah. Wait.

Cole: I honestly have only seen it once. 

Lily: Have you really only seen it once? no, I can believe that. It's a terrible movie. Yeah, 

That I watch every Christmas instead of Love Actually. Because I argue it's better. 

So yes, in OPS, Brains Trust minus Julianne discuss the possibilities of what is happening.

hypothesizes that it could be a sentient non biological organism. and there's a possibility that someone essentially left a baby on a doorstep. So someone sent out this probe with a sentient non biological [01:00:00] organism on board, and the organism could have bonded with the computer.

 and just like me, this organism thinks that Lwaxana and Odo are endgame, and that is why the Turbolifts don't 

Cole: I'm impressed with Kira for being the one who comes up with these allegories of like, baby on our doorstep, puppy that's attaching itself to O'Brien.

 She does. But then Everyone's like, no, hate that baby metaphor. We're going to go with the puppy metaphor because that's way better. And then they just run with that puppy metaphor. for the whole rest of the episode. 

Cole: well, and that's what I was, look, let's save it for the end. Are our officers problematic?

Definitely, but um, maybe instead of a puppy for the intense of this discussion, we can think of this thing as a chimp. And we're seeing the chimp meld with the computer in, ways that challenge the idea that the computer and the chimp are two different things. 

Lily: Okay. My only problem with this construct is that I can't help thinking about all the stories where have a pet chimp and then the chimp like tears their face off. [01:01:00] That's all I can really think about. Chimps are really dangerous. 

Cole: Chimps are very dangerous. again, I'm not endorsing this model. I'm just simply saying, Trying to suggest that you can neatly bifurcate the chimp in you and the computer in you is maybe a false premise to start with. 

Lily: I'm gonna agree with that. 

Lily: Sisko questions Kira about the length of Odo's regenerative cycle.

 I love that Sisko is the one who thought of this, um, for how long he's been in the turbo lift and how long he can stay in his physical form. and then Kira says, if he doesn't get back into his pale in time, and I love whenever they use the term pale, it just really tickles me. O'Brien then attempts transferring the organism off the station 

 and as we could have foretold, it doesn't work. And it's lights out on Deep Space Nine. And Bashir walks down the promenade with the delegation in the dark and they begin to shit talk O'Brien. and at this point, Bashir is starting to get a little bit touchy saying that for goodness sake, it's the frontier, like we're just doing the [01:02:00] best we can.

And also that is my future boyfriend. So just like. Back off. 

Cole: did you catch the subtle callback to the very first Bashir scene in the pilot? Because when he's this, green, young officer, he says, I chose to come to Deep Space Nine because we're on the edge of the frontier and it's one adventure after another.

And 16 episodes in, he's starting to get a little jaded. He's like, yeah, not exactly the adventures I signed up for. This is actually just what real life is. 

Lily: It's still work, yeah.. 

Cole: He's calling himself out for being so star eyed in the pilot. 

Lily: Yeah. , he's on this redemption arc So then we head to the best scene. we're back in the turbo lift. 

Cole: Yeah. This one beautiful. 

Lily: it's beautiful. Lwaxana finally starts asking Odo some questions, after doing a bit of nervous monologuing, in the previous scenes.

but Odo is looking real sweaty because it's pretty close pale time xana asks if his hair is real and he says, and this is great, and this is so drag, and this is so, Identity politics and he [01:03:00] says, It is real in that it is me. 

Cole: at first you think Lwaxana is just looking for wig tips. Like, ooh, how'd you get your hair to look so natural? 

Lily: No, but she's not. She is deeper than that. It's such a great answer. because I mean, what is real? Who are we like as people? Are we our exterior? Are we the things that we're born with?

 Are we the things that we construct? Are we the things that we dress up as that we perform? you know, what is gender? Is it a performance? Is it, Something intrinsic, and, Deep Space Nine dares to ask these questions.

Cole: yeah, and Odo he knows what he is and what he isn't, so he's able to tell this prying woman, this is me,

but he's still, he's still got a long way to go being okay with that too. 

Lily: She asks him how he's done this, and Odo admits that he imitated the hairstyle of the Bajoran who was assigned to him, in the lab. And Lwaxana is shocked to find out that Odo grew up in this lab.

And then Odo makes this distinction between growing up and what he calls a transition from being what I used to [01:04:00] be to what I learned to become. 

Cole: Which is truly the most heartbreaking description of adolescence that I've ever heard. 

Lily: uh, 

It just makes me want to cry. 

Cole: Transition from what you used to be to what you learned to become.

Lily: Oh, God. And for Odo, it truly is what people, wanted him to be. I suppose, Bajoran society wanted him to look like Bajorans and that's what he became. 

Cole: And a man. he had no gender and, he had this, uh, sort of father figure male lab tech who he built his entire identity around and became a man.

Tried to become a Bajoran man. 

Lily: Just like so many people do with their own parents. Uh. She. I well, he says that it sounds very lonely, what he's describing. and he counters that with saying he's very self sufficient. he's a rock and he is an island. And she says, I'm sure you had to be to survive. It's just so emotional. 

Cole: Oh, 

And so suddenly he's talking

about his childhood and 

his pain and trauma. 

Lily: and he sort of tells it in the tone of a joke. So [01:05:00] he says that he was the life of the party.

and in order to fit in he would be entertaining and he would perform tricks, changing into a chair or raise a cat. And that's what he would do to, keep people entertained because he didn't know how else to connect with people, I guess. 

Cole: He became, became a minstrel at these parties where he just mocked himself, seen so many gay men, especially when I was in college, would see gay men who, are just incredibly flamboyant and effeminate to the point that, , they never had the option to pass as a straight person. 

Lily: Mm hmm. 

Cole: . And I would see a lot of these guys just choose to turn it into a joke and become the life of the party . Because it was the only way they would be accepted.

Lily: And also just, a way of protecting yourself if you say to people, look at this, this is what I am, it's funny, it's a joke, then they can't hurt you because you've already put it out there

Cole: Let me beat you to the punchline. 

Lily: Yeah, 

Cole: and that's what Odo was doing at these parties, turning himself into a chair. 

Lily: Lwaxana tells him that he's been going to the wrong parties and he should come to one of [01:06:00] hers and then all the guests will have to entertain him. 

Cole: had too much wine and I'm gonna start crying. 

Lily: I'm gonna start crying.

I didn't know this is where this episode would go, but also I did. 

Cole: yeah, we definitely did. 

Lily: This is the stuff that gets into my cold, cold heart. That 

Cole: penetration of the cold crow heart. 

Lily: so yes, she's really very sweet, but it's hour 15 in Odo's cycle, and he's looking pretty moist. 

Cole: And this is when I thought of Cinderella, cause it's like, going to turn into a pumpkin after 16 

Lily: hours. He is.

 in some beige slippers. 

Cole: Who fits in Odo's beige slippers? 

Lily: Back in ops, as the STEM crew attempt to fix the issues with the computer, a plasma fire breaks out in the visitor quarters, blasting the delegation in some kind of cosmic karma for their entitlement and overall boringness. Oh, you, 

Cole: um 

Lily: what did I miss? 

Cole: do this crazy thing with the computer where they try to slow its brain down and 

Lily: Oh, [01:07:00] yeah, yeah, yeah, the, end scene that we never hear from again is pulling things out. It's like , brain surgery, where you keep the person, , playing the violin or singing or Yeah. 

Cole: you get the film homage in that scene? 

Lily: Ooh, no, I didn't. Oh, was it, , Space Odyssey.

Cole: Space Odyssey. 

Lily: Yeah. 

Cole: Yeah, the way he finally kills Hal at the end Hal singing a song, trying to distract the guy and he's like slowly pulling all his tubes out 

Lily: and Hal's voice starts 

Cole: to slur and drag and it's even lit up like a red board just like this was.

So this was, this was a very deliberate 2001 thing. Homage 

Lily: and I just blazed right past it. 

Cole: Oh, 

Lily: man. 

Cole: goodness I'm here to slow things down.

Lily: But honestly, because, I can be basic and I just care about weeks sometimes.

Cole: But yes, the pulling random diodes out of the computer, backfires extraordinarily, has a huge fireball, which yes, is the exact same fireball graphic that we saw Just one episode ago when Kiera's imagination created a fireball. 

Lily: Look, why waste a good thing?, you know?

Cole: Make the [01:08:00] most out of that expensive fireball graphic. 

Lily: Mm so that breaks out in the visitor quarters where the delegation and Julian are walking. So the whole thing's on fire, and they don't know what to do, and it's a terrifying situation. 

Cole: Save the Karens.

 And it looks to be that Julian is going to be pretty useless. 

Lily: or is he? 

Cole: as he always has been. 

Lily: O'Brien and Dax, discuss the life form that's on the probe, that's been alone for so many years, and then they extend the lost puppy metaphor, talking about it's like someone leaving a lost puppy at your door, and O'Brien in his Irish folksy way talks about how He once had a pup, and if it was left locked alone in a room, it would scratch at the door to get out.

Pups don't want to be left alone. They just love attention. and that's how he works out that the life form is getting attention from them by whatever it's doing. . And what they've been trying to do is separate it but it is like putting a lonely puppy inside a locked room.

it'll try to get up. and then O'Brien realizes he has to build a dog house. 

Cole: Aw, he's got to create a little home for this dog who's just desperate for a little scratch behind the ears. 

Lily: Just needs a bit [01:09:00] of good boy attention Backing the turbo lift.

 I guess this is the best scene in the episode. 

Cole: They're both so good, though. 

Lily: This is the one where everyone's allowed to sob, though. 

Cole: Exactly, 

Lily: or sob whenever, know, You do you. But things are looking pretty rough for Odo.

He is looking melty, 

Cole: and he's got his back turned to us and to the camera like he's so ashamed he can't even face the camera. 

Lily: Yeah. 

it's like he's the Phantom of the Opera. 

I don't know. Lwaxana says it's alright, but Odo says no one's ever seen him like this before, no one's ever seen him so vulnerable, I guess, but he insists that he's not ashamed, he's not ashamed of this state of being, but that it's a very private affair for him, 

Cole: well he says, only the male researcher, this, uh, father figure Has seen him like this. maybe it's sort of nudity It's like your parents see you Naked when you're a young child and then to be naked in front of someone else as an adult is a completely different thing 

Lily: But at the mercy of someone else as well 

Cole: Yes.

Lily: And then this shot, it's from behind, you just see Odo and then [01:10:00] next to him is Lwaxana's wig and she's sort of handing it out to him and it's such a great shot.

then you turn around she's there without the wig on and She is a true winter because she has beautiful dark hair. and it all makes sense. Um, but she says that no one's ever seen her without a wig. and that without it, she feels like she looks ordinary and I've never cared to be ordinary. and even non shape shifters have to change. and it's so vulnerable and it's so open and it's just this way of showing him that she accepts him because she knows he can't, hear it. she could tell him, I accept you , but he has to see it, he has to see her be vulnerable first.

This is, 

Cole: so now's probably the best time to go back to that RuPaul quote, we're all born naked and the rest is drag, the, the beautiful wigs, the beautiful dresses, like, that is her, that is her true self, it's the costume she puts on to become herself, and it's the exact opposite for Odo.

He puts on this beige costume every day to blend [01:11:00] in, but that's not him. And she's saying, yes, we all wear costumes, but I, I choose to put on this costume because it gets me more connected to who I am. And I'm inviting you to, to be who you are in front of me too.

Lily: yeah, yeah, aw. And then Odo says to her, you're not at all what I expected. which is, what we're all thinking in this moment.

And then the waxy Odo melts into his true form. Sans pale and Lwaxana catches him in the skirt of her beautiful red dress, 

And then she just looks at him in his goo form, just lovingly and benevolently, and the same way that she looks at him when he's in his other form, you know, it's not different to her, she probably doesn't even need him to be, in his sort of corporeal, human form. She would maybe accept him as he is. Cause you know, she can swim. 

Cole: She can swim. 

Lily: I think that as much as it's a throwaway jokey line when she says, I can swim, she really can, like, she really can go with the flow.

She can, she can meet people where they're at. [01:12:00] If she, is not just ruthlessly trying to get them into bed. she can, see where they are in that moment and be there for them. And I think that she shows that throughout the Star Trek, serieses. 

Cole: Uh, what do we make of the symbolism of Odo seeking refuge her dress.

 I mean, we could say, Oh, , he got inside her skirt, right? but we would 

Lily: not say that. We would not say that. 

Cole: There's something very maternal, right? It's maternal. Yeah. But, 

Lily: but I think that mirrors what, romantic relationships can be as well, that we're, all looking for the love that our parents gave us.

in different forms in our romantic relationships. it's not the only thing we're looking for. We're looking for sexual desire. We're looking for companionship, friendship, you know, it's this huge ask that we make of romantic relationships and, 

Cole: No, that's it exactly, that strange line of intimacy and, bearing yourself you I mean, we need Freud here, right?

But like, 

Lily: Let me put it this way. I'm not [01:13:00] calling Sisko daddy because I want him to be my daddy. 

Cole: Am I right?

Exactly. Right? And we'll leave it there.

Lily: anyway.

Cole: Is there also, we've only touched on masculine, roles and norms, We talked about it a bit with David Livingston, the masculine, especially the American masculine ideal. It's hard, tough, isolated, I'm a rock, I'm an island, 

Lily: Yep. 

Cole: and there's no squishiness.

And Lwaxana's like, look, I'm into that, you're like a hot dude, but get squishy with me. Just let your guard down and, melt into my lap. 

Lily: Yeah.

Cole: It's almost like, no wonder she's into a shapeshifter because she desires that and merging of two souls really lovely, healthy way. 

Lily: And I No spoilers for the seasons ahead, but I ship this romance.

think it, transcends age and it transcends gender and it, I don't know, I think if Odo would let himself, it would have been a lovely relationship for him to have. 

Cole: they knew [01:14:00] what they were doing, pairing these two. Yeah. what's great is that we get two more episodes with them.

Lily: We do. We do! but meanwhile, things aren't going well for the people stuck behind the door and engulfed in flames. but then, we head back to O'Brien, who has made a sub program that he's titled Pup. and then he transfers the probe into this.

Subprogram, essentially giving it the doghouse, and then everything comes back online. Did I miss any, cinematic, references in that scene? 

Anything from the Godfather, anything from, uh, no. 

Cole: mean, what else is there to cover after The Holiday and 2001 A Space Odyssey? That's 

Lily: true, The Holiday, it's up there.

and Kira get into the Burnt Down Corridor, and they can't find anyone, but then apparently Julian hasn't been useless. managed to get the delegation into the Jeffreys troops. 

Cole: Hooray! 

Lily: uh, won them over doing this, it seems. they're all commending him, , and then Sisko congratulates Julian, and Julian is surprisingly humble about this, he was just in the right place at the right time.

[01:15:00] so that is growth for this character. He's like barely even smug about it, 

Cole: The point of this whole, C plot for Bashir? 

Lily: I mean, I think I would argue that anyone on Deep Space Nine is the lost puppy. Um, in the next scene, they talk about how, the life form on the probe is just another life form visiting the station. 

Cole: Yep

Lily: And arguably all the characters are these traumatized, lonely, lost puppies, 

Cole: mm 

Lily: I think Bashir is definitely one of them, as we find out more about his character.

and I think as he sort of moves away from toxic masculinity and generally, insecure, horrible behavior, he, is sort of a lonely person who needs guidance. And I think that, Sisko has really actually given him the opportunity to, be a Starfleet officer. And, yes, it was hazing, but it was also, something with responsibility and he's taken it and done the right thing.

Cole: Yeah. 

Lily: The kid's done good, Yep.

Cole: Growing up, under the tutelage and protection of. [01:16:00] Daddy Sisko. 

Lily: Daddy Sisko and all the other lost puppies on the station, you know, they all mother and father each other.

They all take care of each other in their polycule. Which is It's the first time I've said that, but I'm saying it. 

Cole: Give it time.

Lily: Yeah. It's canon. 

Cole: Yep. 

Lily: Right? So Lwaxano and Odo make it out of the lift. And it's, kind of funny cause it almost seems like a, rom com, you know, they've come out of the lift a bit disheveled and she's putting her wig back on as they walk out.

Putting her hair back 

Cole: up. A little sex hair. 

Lily: Yeah, exactly. Odo apologizes for how their picnic went. but she says when it comes to picnics, the only thing that really matters is the company. another thing that I'm going to. Throw into a conversation I don't know when. 

Lily: Odo says your sensitivity and discretion are appreciated. and then she says, next time you see me, I'll give you a lot more to appreciate.

And then she strokes strokes his face in this like very masculine way. like he's the ingenue and he's been the ingenue the whole [01:17:00] time. 

Cole: I mean, hasn't he been? 

Lily: He has, he really has. then. She's walking away with back turned to him, and then he smiles for the third time.

Cole: Mm hmm. 

Lily: So he smiles at children. 

Cole: Lwaxana 

Lily: Troi. 

Cole: Get it, Lwaxana. 

Lily: And I just wish she knew that that happened, but maybe she does because she can read minds. I don't know. She 

Cole: She knows. 

Lily: and Odo, he really is just another one of the pups. The Young Pups, making his way on the frontier. you crying? 

Cole: No, I was really worried in that first, of the two good scenes 

Lily: I welcome it.

Cole: That whole thing about me having to go to the toilet, that was just a ruse.

I just needed to go get some. 

Lily: Just had to sob in the shower for 10 minutes. Yeah, we've all, we've all So back in ops, and Dax explained to Sisko that they've adopted the life form rather than trying to get rid of it. because it's the humane thing to do. And then I was just thinking how this episode kind of [01:18:00] reminds me of the Tosk episode 

Cole: Totally! 

Lily: that it's it's the puppy, it's the lost dog. 

Cole: O'Brien finally gets his little animal friend. 

Lily: He does, and he's put it in the dog house. He even calls the puppy a 

Cole: friend again.

He's like, oh, I made a friend. 

Lily: Oh, yeah, and then O'Brien insists he'll take care of it and give it the attention it needs, to which Sisko replies, Keep it off the furniture. Like he's been waiting all day for that zinger. then O'Brien smiles to himself because he's had a good day because he's made his friend. 

Cole: so excited, he just adopted a pet.

Lily: He's got a pet. He wasn't physically tortured once. Just like a bit of stress. It's great. Is it okay? Yes, any follow up about this pup ever again? 

Cole: yeah. surely you, analyzed this episode the same way I did. You realized just how screwed up this conclusion was alongside the Odo storyline? 

Lily: Yeah 

Cole: Because Odo's whole origin story is like, I was found drifting and these scientists Thought I was an animal and adopted and studied me.

Yeah, and then [01:19:00] O'Brien finds this thing drifting in space decides it's a puppy. It's not a baby. And adopts this puppy and Hopefully this thing if it does have more sentience, finds a way to assert that later on, rather than being locked in some subroutine under O'Brien's, watch for the rest of its life?

Lily: Hey, hey, we'll never know, because they never talk about it again. 

Cole: Like look, it was not the most captivating plot line, let's be honest, but 

Lily: I don't know.

we hope 

Cole: research continues, because at least Odo's surrogate dad did research on him, and O'Brien's just talking about feeding him bones every now and then. Yeah, 

Lily: like, maybe someone who's not just some salt of the earth Irish worker.

Cole: Let's hope Jadzia

goes and plays with it every now and then and does some like Diane Fossey Jane Goodall stuff and tries to figure out if it can communicate. Like if there's a Jane Goodall on the station, it's Jadzia Dax. So here's hoping. It's true.

Communicate with that chimp, Jadzia. 

Lily: I don't know, I feel like, for O'Brien, this is just another reason to not spend time with his family. And that's what he wants. [01:20:00] 

Cole: So, the inner chimp mind management model was first introduced to me by a doctor acquaintance of mine,, uh, about six or seven years ago, 

Lily: uh huh, 

Cole: a doctor who was struggling Parts of himself that he thought were distracting from his ability to be a competent, successful, focused, person . And 

Lily: right 

Cole: And, we lost touch. and just about last year, I see him on social media and, he. has actually abandoned his, career in medicine to become a singer songwriter 

Lily: mmm, great. Pick the chimp. 

Cole: he's got a beautiful voice and his songs are now on UK radio.

And his very first single was all about, for one thing, it was about addressing his bisexuality and it was about Embracing every part of you, accepting every part of you, and not being what people tell you to be.

And it seems like he has finally let in the chimp and learned how to play with his chimp and I'm very happy for 

Lily: him. I love that. Or, you know what? He might have just abandoned this [01:21:00] framework altogether. 

Cole: Yeah, exactly. 

Lily: and thought, you know what? contain multitudes. I can be whatever I want.

Cole: I sure hope so. I mean, my biggest issue with this silly mind management model is it says the human component is really you and the computer and the chimp, no, no, they're not you.

They're, these things that you have to, management or leverage, but that's not you. I think Lwaxana knows that she has as much. chimp as she is computer, as she is quote unquote human, I mean, girl's the voice of the computer on the starships, right? She is as much Oh my 

Lily: god, yes.

Cole: She's as much computer as she is playful chimp, as she is humane and has learned to, dance the waltz of all three of them. 

Lily: She's a goddess, and she lives among the stars now, and 

. 

Lily: It makes me happy and it makes me want to cry. 

Cole: she's exactly where she, was meant to be.

Lily: It's lovely. wait, but more importantly, 

 . Let's move straight on to Fashion Watch because It's so easy. 

Cole: I mean, is it? Make no assumptions, Lily. 

Lily: [01:22:00] Alright, tell me. 

Cole: I'm going to say is Boleyn's ambassadorial outfit does give Luwak Zana some competition. 

Lily: It's like you think I don't know you and you think I didn't know you were gonna say that. 

Cole: Although did you notice He's got some silly hood in the back that covers the nape of his neck for no reason at all. 

Lily: I didn't. I'm gonna have to follow up on that. 

Cole: unfortunately takes it from couture to bad sci fi. that one. He didn't listen to Coco Chanel. He should have taken the hood off the nape of his neck before leaving the house, but.

But you 

Lily: know what? Coco Chanel can get fucked when it comes to drag because always add more. Um, and that's what Lwaxana does. She Put one more thing on. 

Cole: Except okay, so obviously it's down to Lwaxana's three outfits, at her first outfit was to say, I'm a drag queen and I'm damn proud of it. Um, her second outfit was, I am a lioness. I'm ready to pounce. 

Lily: Yeah. 

Cole: And then, outfit three was this restrained, uh, I mean minimalist 

Lily: [01:23:00] restrained for her because it is Marilyn Monroe.

A bright red. It is a bright red dress. So she's still playing the bombshell, but it is restrained for her. I would agree. 

Cole: And my favorite was the minimalist bombshell. 

Yeah. , not least because the material was enough to hold the liquid of a changeling. 

Lily: Look, I know it's something synthetic because it looks stretchy, but.

Definitely 

Cole: synthetic. 

, 

Cole: So, Yeah, Jadzia as trans icon, Odo as queer icon, do you think we're on the right track there?

Lily: I think it's the reason people love this show. 

Cole: Yeah. unfortunately Odo's coming out becomes a lot more complicated than the average queer person's. 

Lily: It does. But I think the heartache is always there. loneliness and the heartache is, is sort of always there at the center of it and the feelings of abandonment and, need to belong, you know? 

Cole: yeah

.

Cole: Odo, we can't wait to see you blossom into the queer you are and take Lwaxana's side [01:24:00] as grand dame of a pride parade somewhere in the Alpha quadrant. 

Lily: I just feel like he should have gone on with her, had some adventures, and he would have gotten to the Great Link quicker.

Cole: Way faster than like wasting his time with Kira. 

Lily: Exactly. Anyway. 

Cole: this has genuinely helped me realize I used to be behind Odo and Kira, but now I'm really realizing how problematic it was. 

Lily: Yeah. 

Cole: okay, so, in conclusion, God bless Vlogzana. 

Lily: Write in to us with what you think our drag names should be.

Cole: That's it. Lily and I need drag names desperately. alright everyone, we'll see you next week for Dramatis Personae, which has a Shakespearean dramatic bent to it. So, you know, you know, Lily and I are going to get up there with our stuffy theatrical takes.

So join us. So 

Lily: stuffy. and I'm not recapping, so I will be let off my leash. Woo! 

Cole: Yeah. All right, everyone, we will see you next [01:25:00] week. 

Lily: All right, 

 Thanks. Bye.