Manifest Density: IF WISHES WERE HORSES (1.15)

Thought this episode was nothing but Rumpelstiltskin and rabid emus? Think again! Lily plumbs the depths of the station residents’ imaginations to psychoanalyze their deepest desires and greatest fears, uncovering some surprising insights along the way. Meanwhile Cole revisits The Secret, the runaway 2006 self-help bestseller all about "turning thoughts into things," to evaluate just how powerful the human imagination really is. 

Chapters

• 0:00 Intro: Of Schemas and 'The Secret'
• 14:07 Wine pairing
• 18:52 Episode recap
• 1:17:47 Final Thoughts (and Fashion Watch!)

Transcript

[00:00:00] But seriously, why are these emus still here? 

Lily: I don't want to say this again to you, Cole, but just really try not to yuck someone's yum.

 Hey everyone, I'm Cole Paulson. 

Lily: And I'm Lily Rossen. 

Cole: And welcome back to Deep Space Wine, the podcast that attempts to recap and decode every episode of Deep Space Nine, the forgotten stepchild of the Star Trek universe. Each episode, we share a bottle of wine, wind down, and then wind ourselves up again with our strong opinions about DS9.

Because in our social experience, there's nothing people love more than when someone talks at length about Star Trek or wine.

Lily: An alternate simp version of Dax. 

Cole: I actually do want, to talk a lot about her. 

Lily: Me too. That will mainly be what I'm talking about. 

Lly: [00:01:00] Problematic 

Cole: Because what else did this episode actually give us? 

Lily: look, I'm going to argue it's given us some insight. 

Cole: Oh 

Lily: we were talking about this and we were talking about this with David Livingston 

Lly: there's gonna be a, there's gonna be a lot of that.

Cole: Are we going to drop his name every single time from here on out? 

Lly: I will be name dropping constantly. 

Cole: Listeners, if you're not aware,

 we did just interview David Livingston and you should listen because it was a fantastic conversation. 

Lily: so yeah, after last week's quite brilliant episodes, progress.

Yeah. We are given just what everyone wanted next, a Rumpelstiltskin episode. Is that right? That's what you wanted. 

Cole: people, they demanded it. there's this hilarious quote from Ira Stephen Baer. He's like, look, this is an episode We just had to try and do, which I humbly, have to disagree with Mr.

Bear. I'm not, I'm not sure they had to do this episode. he also says he says we should be awarded brass balls for doing Rumpelstiltskin. 

Lily: Yeah. I did see that he said that. And, [00:02:00] um, I think that's, that's probably more fair. Yes, they didn't have to do it, but yes, the balls thing, sure. 

Cole: Okay, do you reward Ira Stephen Behr an honorary pair of brass balls?

Lily: I feel like I just don't really want to give balls to anyone, but that's just me. I don't just found that very weird. 

Cole: such a prude. 

Lly: I know,

Lily: body and slut shaming, that is also a theme in this episode, Odo. Oof, So, there were a few places for me to go with this episode.

Mm-Hmm. . I'll be paying homage to the Brothers Grimm with the wine choice this evening, 

which is a German wine. I'll talk about that later.

but yeah, Brothers Grimm, I thought was a kind of interesting track. And the question, that we discussed with David Livingston in our interview with him is, the importance of children's stories. so do you know about the Brothers Grimm, Cole? 

Cole: Uh, let's see. Or the 

Lily: Grimm Brothers. 

Cole: basically most of the fairy tales that I was told in preschool were collected by [00:03:00] them maybe in the 1800s. And they didn't come up with them. They, collected sort of oral tradition stories. Is that right? 

Lily: Correct. You nailed it. So they were sort of among the first to try to preserve, oral tales and in particular, a lot of German folk tales. the list is, quite incredible. Everything you know, everything Disney ripped off. Cinderella, The Frog Prince, Hansel and Gretel, Little Red Riding Hood, Rapunzel, Sleeping Beauty, Snow White, and of course, Ruffles Titskin. And if you think about those stories, and you think about how many literary tropes are within this body of work, the mind kind of boggles.

 But then I thought this kind of takes us to a similar pathway as, our episode about the storyteller and arguably monster literary theory. because this episode also has kind of, a big bad, to rival the Dalrok, this sort of anomaly. and it's actually quite similar in looks and also in its formation by collective imagination.

I 

Cole: I had not made that connection. You're so right.

Lily: Yeah, spoiler by the way. 

Lly: And also I wanted to do something silly, to match If Wishes Were Horses

Lily: To

Cole: frankly match the vibe of this [00:04:00] episode. Yeah. 

Lily: Yes! Episode 15, If Wishes Were Horses. so instead, I wanted to look at this episode as a kind of fun thought experiment about each of the characters. and the ways in which their imagination and interior fantasy life plays out on screen.

Cole: Oof.

Lily: and I guess more importantly to me, what this has to say about the characters. 

Lly: What do you think about that?

Cole: Oh, I'm, I'm so ready. It's insane. I'm it harkens back beautifully to one of our earliest ventures, Freudian Sips, episode four, where we used the utter nonsense spelling out of all the characters mouths to try to do some Freudian readings.

 and that was, I confess, I was not entirely on board when you told me that that was the journey we were to go on with that episode. And I, I've never eaten my words more. I've never eaten my non sense words more because that was You 

Lily: ate your hat. Ate crow? Don't do that. 

That's funny because I did briefly toy with discussing Freud, but being there done that. okay. So let me tell you about my [00:05:00] categorization. these probably exist, if you look up TV tropes, but I just came up with these based on the viewing told me. so it's categories of, different kinds of fantasy based on an archetype or a trope. I'm going to list them off in a row and then maybe we can pass through it a little bit.

the hero fantasy, the saviour fantasy, the sexual validation fantasy, the fear fantasy or fear or anxiety fantasy, and the revenge fantasy. 

Cole: Whoa, wait, and you're telling me this is like copyright Lily Rossin? like is your intellectual property? invented 

Lily: it. Look, these tropes definitely exist, Sure, but these are beautiful monikers. Thank you. I just fell in love with you all over again. Oh, stop. 

Cole: my hero. 

Lily: Thank you. and you are my savior and also my anxiety. Um, 

Cole: sounds like an Evanescence lyric.

Lily: [00:06:00] Oh my God. I'm going to write that song tonight.

Uh, yeah. So I've, categorized the main characters. Like, I've personally categorized the main characters into these fantasies and I won't tell you , what these are, uh, because I want to see if you can do the same. 

Cole: Okay, should I write these down? Sorry.

Lily: Yes, if you want. 

Cole: Okay, the hero fantasy, the savior fantasy. 

Lily: The sexual validation fantasy. The fear or anxiety fantasy. 

And the revenge fantasy. 

Cole: Okay. So the big five. 

Lily: Yeah. 5's a good number right? 

Cole: It's a great number! Can I ask questions? 

Lily: Yeah! 

Cole: What's the difference between a hero and a savior? 

Lily: I guess when I, talk about hero fantasy, I'm more talking about, being with your heroes,

the fantasy of, of, meeting your heroes 

Cole: Okay, 

And, fear, anxiety, fantasy. Like, anyone fantasize about being afraid or anxious? Well, 

Lily: guess it depends on what you what we're describing fantasy is. Is it sort of a flight of the imagination?

Cole: Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

Lily: I don't think fantasy [00:07:00] particularly has to mean something you desire. I think it just can , somewhere your mind takes you. I episode really plays with that. 

Cole: You can say like , you're indulging in fears or you're indulging in your anxieties 

Lily: Yeah. Oh, and people daydream about their anxiety all the time. 

Lly: I know I do. 

Cole: yeah, In fact, that's sort of what I wanted to, bring in with my take, so. Great. 

Lily: so yeah, I thought that, we could work out, what's happening with the characters with these categories. And also people can play along at home, and presumably we'll have many digressions about what this means for the characters, and who they are.

Cole: Because as, David Livingston said in our interview with him, the best stories are character based. And, I of the writers for this, I've read that they struggled to make this a character based. episode, but I think it is there. I'm not sure the episode totally gelled, but you can see them trying their best to make it a character driven story. .

Lily: and I think it, Like I said at the top of the episode, I do think it reveals some things about the characters and they are moving forward, but yeah, maybe not done in, the [00:08:00] most, what's the word I'm looking for? Entertaining? probably entertaining. It probably is slightly accomplished and not that entertaining.

Cole: But again, I do feel rewarded for really, putting this under the microscope because. I agree with you. I actually learned some things about the characters that I wouldn't have if I'd written this off for being quite silly, which it also is. 

Lily: It's also that, yes. 

Lly: so do you want to tell me about your, thesis, 

Cole: Yeah, well, so, I wanted to maybe push back against any accusations that, we are, simply wine sipping intellectual elitists who talk about Freud and Shakespeare all the time. sorry, 

Lily: didn't get the memo. Well, you, 

Lly: Throw me under the bus.

Lily: the 

Cole: game. 

you brought in the game when we talked about the episode Vortex.

And, I would like to humbly offer another best selling yet questionable self help phenomenon, The Secret. 

Lily: Great. 

Cole: it is clear to me that the writers of If Wishes Were Horses knew [00:09:00] the secret. in fact, uh, and Lily. 

Lily: What a claim! 

Cole: Lily, I'm going to tell you the secret as well, if you listen closely. 

Lly: Mm! 

Cole: so it turns out, The Secret was originally a documentary before it was, the best selling book, and I took one for the team, and I watched the documentary last night. 

Lly: Whoa. 

Cole: So you're welcome. 

Lily: Is Oprah in it? Or is she later? 

Cole: Oh, she's so, so above this documentary. and look, I can say something positive about If Wishes Were Horses, and that is side by side with the secret. It is a cinematic triumph. I can safely say that The Secret is just one big rip off of this brilliant episode Star Trek. 

So, to prove my point, secret, as summarized in a direct quote in the documentary, is that, thoughts become things. And they even illustrate an example of a guy sitting on his sofa, and he sees a photo of an [00:10:00] elephant. And suddenly, there's an elephant in his living room! And then he's like stuck cleaning up elephant poo.

That's the secret, Lily. Wow. They have interviews with all these people who call themselves like metaphysicians and things. are you, you know what the secret is, right?

am I spoiling the secret for you? 

Lily: Okay. No, no, no. I'm familiar with the secret. I was around in the 2000s when it was sort of peak popularity. Oprah was really into it, but she was really into all kinds of garbage. so it's what you, you manifest your desires. 

Cole: Yeah. So they say that it's this tightly held secret that they're finally telling the world in yeah, 2006.

but it's been around since the 1800s under various names, mostly the law of attraction, 

Lly: Mm.

Cole: The law of attraction says that, positive or negative thoughts bring positive or negative experiences into a person's life. Yeah. So, whatever you're thinking manifests, whether positive or negative.

so manifesting is another term for it. And it, it has a resurgence every [00:11:00] few years under different names. Recently, it was a TikTok phenomenon called Lucky Girl Syndrome. 

Lly: gross. Sorry.

Lily: Is it just being white and pretty? No, Lily, 

Cole: everything that happens in your life is a direct result of your thoughts. some of the, some of the best quotes from this thing, Just place your order with the universe. It's really that easy. Or my favorite. You don't need to understand it.

No one understands electricity. No one even knows what electricity is.

Lly: Oh my gosh.

Lily: it's a thing. It's a real thing. Um, okay, okay, so, basically the secret was written by season one Julian Bashir. Yes! Yes! Is that where we're going? 

Cole: yeah,

so I, want our, companion challenge alongside the far more highbrow trying to figure out what all their fantasies are, to try to see who on the station knows the secret. 

Lly: Amazing. Amazing, Cole. [00:12:00] 

and my mind is already exploiting, 

Lily: doing these two things side by side, and it pairs kind of perfectly. 

Cole: I think it's a perfect, yeah, it's gonna be a fine outing together. 

Lily: Just quickly, have we invented a new kind of, religion, like Scientology, where, L Ron 

Hubbard ties this whole thing to aliens, much like this episode of Star Trek. The secret all along is being determined by aliens. Whoa. I don't want to Look, let's talk about this in private because I would like to be rich one day. 

Cole: Yeah, we're gonna, we're gonna keep this secret. We're not willing to share.

yeah, there will 

Lily: be no documentary about this secret. 

Before any. Ah, adherence to the secret.

Cole: turns off this podcast episode in annoyance, I want to say, there is some merit to the psychology of The Secret. plenty has been said about, the power of positivity, and you, you sort of get what you give in terms of the energy , you put out in the world.

they have this example of like the power of The [00:13:00] Secret. There's this guy, this really cranky customer at a restaurant. He's cranky about how bad the service is 

And in his education, he bumps a server who spills food on him. 

Cole: but also, yeah, if you're like really cranky and you treat the service staff like crap, you're gonna get your food spit in.

That's just cause and effect. always said that karma is sort of a science. get what you give. in fact, going back to Germans, I just learned a beautiful German expression. Well, it's not, it's not beautiful in the original German, but there's a common saying in German that translates roughly, whatever you yell into the woods is yelled back to you.

Lily: Ooh. Can you say it in German? 

Cole: Nein. Ich kann nicht. documentary definitely goes a step further and says it's like this cosmic force that the aliens bestowing 

Lily: yes.

But, the elephant shitting in the room is privilege. That's . Exactly. 

Cole: But no, I 

Lily: I take what you're saying. and I do think energy is important and I do think you're right about [00:14:00] karma almost being a science. you get what you give in some scenarios. 

also I need to talk about the wine. 

Cole: Oh, please.

Lly: So segue from the beautiful German expression 

Lily: this is a beautiful German expression.

of Riesling. Nicely done. Thank you. so this is a 2021 Karl Lohan, Varador Riesling. I can't remember, have we done a Riesling yet? 

Cole: I think once before. 

Lily: Um, I like Riesling. this is the the trocken style of Riesling, which means it's in the dry style. so it's not off dry or sweet, which is how I prefer Riesling. 

Lly: And you love me, so you love dry 

Cole: That's accurate.

Lily: this is from the Moselle region of Germany, which is probably the most internationally well known German of winemaking. . the vineyards are along the Moselle River. and they're on this very steep incline, which is quite an arduous way to harvest wine apparently. so you should look up some photos. It's very cool. maybe I'll put one on the Instagram the Riesling grape is incredibly influenced by terroir. That's what it's called. It's quite known for, [00:15:00] which is why it can taste so different, Riesling to Riesling.

And there are huge differences region to region. 

Cole: I have learned what UA is, even if I can't pronounce it, it's the soil that the grapes are grown in. 

Lily: Yeah. So, this is, Slate, essentially. folks, I'm going to read off Wikipedia because they, describe it pretty well. because of the northerly location of the Moselle, the Riesling wines are often light, tending to low alcohol, crisp and high in acidity, and often exhibit flowery, rather than or in addition to fruity aromas.

it's most common vineyard salt is derived from various kinds of slate deposits, which tend to give the wines a transparent mineralic aspect that often exhibits great depth of flavor. Um, so that's Rieslings from Moselle, and this wine in particular, I've just got a couple of tasting notes.

. this is an aromatic and full flavoured Riesling with a lively vitality, an intense bouquet and a powerful body. Nice nose of citrus and yellow apples, Hint of green leaves, Very dry, super mineral, Almost tannic, salty [00:16:00] finish.

Lily: and then I, Because I couldn't find any wine reviewers. who wrote something beautiful about it. I just looked at all these, various forums you can go to to read the majority of what people are saying about it. so a lot of people, mentioned that it was dry, mentioned lemon, mentioned a little bit of sugar on the nose, and also mentioned notes of 

petrol, 

Sorry, Petrel. 

Lily: which is, Kind of common in the German Austrian style Rieslings, but usually that's more when it's an aged Riesling, and this is quite young, 

Huh. All right. 

Lily: But yeah, I think you do, often get that, on the nose, with Rieslings too. And then also, for a bit of fun, there was some mention of tropical notes. Yes. What, what? I recently sent little like sort of pictogram to Cole of, sort of the different categories of fruit to describe different wines.

Yeah. and one of them is tropical and Cole was like, Ooh, have we had anything tropical? And I was like, no, because I hate tropical notes. Yeah, . So you're 

Cole: willing to, you're willing to, uh, take a [00:17:00] chance with this one? 

Lily: look, I didn't know about those tropical notes. oh, no. And yeah, I definitely didn't know that about Rieslings, but yeah, apparently this one, a lot of people got mango, 

Cole: Well, that, oh man, I can't wait. Ah, 

Lily: do it? 

Cole: Let's do it. 

Lily: let me just pour from this very long net bottle, which is also. The Riesling style bottle. super long neck. Uh, rather like myself. 

I've been told. You don't need to know things about my body, but anyway. 

Cole: that's not the first time you've compared your body shape to a wine bottle. 

Lily: Look, I am a woman. know about being compared to objects. Best to get in there first, you know? Alright, cheers!

Cheers Any petrol? 

Cole: Thankfully not.

Honestly, it's delicious. 

Lily: also, if you live in Europe, it will not break the bank. it's not super pricey. It's sort of the entry level, Riesling from this producer. and it's very, , very good. 

Cole: I always, underestimate Germans and their wine.

 Germany is not a [00:18:00] wine culture, you know, they're, they drink beer for breakfast, but 

Lily: Um, Germany is a wine place. What are you talking about? 

Cole: No, I'm just saying I always forget. I'm aware that they have wine. Yeah, 

Lily: okay. 

Cole: you know, Italy and France, Spain, when I go to Germany, I'm not like , I can't wait to have some delicious wine. But, uh, this is a welcome reminder. 

Lily: Well, next time you're there, you can, , change things up.

Cole: 100%. 

Give me one good Riesling to go to Germany. 

Lily: Oh, great. Shitty wine puns. I love it. I love it. 

Lly: All right. 

Lily: should we, uh, do it? 

Cole: Yeah, let's 

Lily: do it. 

Cole: incidentally, the title, If Wishes Were Horses, comes from the old saying, If wishes were horses, then beggars might ride. 

Lily: Privilege. If wishes were 

Cole: Basically, yeah. so giddy up y'all. Here we go with the recap of If Wishes Were Horses. 

Lily: Yeehaw! 

Cole: We open in Quark's bar where we get to spend some quality time with our [00:19:00] favorite best frenemies club, Quark and Odo. 

Lily: Um, it's my favorite best friends club.

no frenemies involved. No 

Lly: how dare you. 

Cole: they freaking love each other

Lly: They love each other. 

Cole: Quark is supposedly trying to get Odo off his back by suggesting he treat himself to some hollow sweet time. But Odo grumbles that he doesn't have time for fantasies.

Lily: And 

Cole: so subtle setup at all for this episode's theme, the Power of Imagination. , Odo calls, imagination a waste of time, he's really channeling Ebenezer screw energy more than even usual in this episode. imagination Humbug. 

Lily: and it is interesting, again for a character that, is so.

plastic is so rigid, with this stuff. Hmm. I think we've talked about that many times, 

Cole: With, with David Livingston too. 

Lily: Yes, we did. What? but yeah, he's disgusted at the idea of a shapeshifter playmate. 

Cole: Quark's like, I could create a shapeshifter playmate for you. The two of you could intermingle.

Can you imagine? Quark also mentions that he's made it his business to learn about baseball, [00:20:00] to maybe adapt his holosuite offerings to the new Hugh Maughan clientele coming to the station. He says the true entrepreneur knows how to sniff the wind. But it's funny because he missed the memo that baseball actually went out of fashion over 300 years ago, and it's just the crazy Siskos who care about it anymore.

Lily: Yeah, but what he's describing , I don't think it's just baseball, it's all kind of family style entertainment. He goes on to describe it in detail, and it sounds a lot like Disney World. 

Lly: which is sort of peak,

Lily: peak capitalism. 

Cole: Yeah, it's so true. 

Lily: Kids everywhere, Ferengi selling useless souvenirs.

 I've been to Disney World, that's pretty much it. 

Cole: Disneyland is a capitalist wonderland. 

, I was also, he was giving Willy Wonka, like, come with me to a world of pure imagination. Pure 

Lily: imagination. And I'll make money off it. Yeah. 

Cole: And then buy these tchotchke souvenirs.

Lily: Yeah. I love tchotchkes. so to me, this kind of sets up. three characters relationships to fantasy and imagination. Hmm. so there's, well in that first scene it's Quark and Odo, but [00:21:00] then also Jake, who's in the holosuite playing the baseball. Right. so with Quark and Odo, it's kind of like this interesting yin yang dynamic, which you said is, yes, a bit on the nose, it shows them at two opposite ends of the scale in regard to sort of a healthy fantasy life or imagination, perhaps both of them going slightly too far. 

and we also get like a little bit of an insight into what category they might reside in. and then of course, Jake, who's a kid who's still in touch with his imagination and his sense of fantasy, 

Cole: Because Jake is going to play baseball in the hollow suites with all baseball greats, basically like fantasizing that he's professional baseball player. 

Lily: Yeah, 

Cole: But it is, Quark and Odo, they're on complete opposite ends of the spectrum of their willingness to fantasize and, how healthy they think it is. And, Odo is so trapped in just seeing the world for exactly what it is, which I guess makes him a good detective or investigator because, you know, he looks at the facts and he never lets his mind, stray from what's exactly in front of him, but then he's also miserable.

Yeah, can 

Lily: I deep dive on this scene? [00:22:00] I wasn't going to, but I actually am going to in terms of direction. Because I've been thinking about that for some reason. so because of our interview 

Cole: with director David Livingston. 

Lily: So in this scene, 

Odo, he's, sort of front and center in the foreground. And he's constantly scanning the bar, looking at the tangible world, trying to make sense Um, trying to distill everything into straightforward facts and cause and effect. whereas Quark is just sort of flying around the bar, going from place to place, like a flight of fancy, A Thank you. 

Cole: Yeah, Odo says, people spend too much time fantasizing and not paying adequate attention to their real lives. 

Lly: Exactly.

Cole: They're laying the debate on the table. 

Lily: Yeah, it's sort of interesting as well for these two characters because, by nature Odo is a shapeshifter.

By nature, Quark is a Ferengi who lives his life by the set rules of acquisition. Um, and yet. Quark is very flexible in so many ways, and Odo is so rigid. 

Cole: I think that's what makes Odo [00:23:00] one of the most tragic figures in all literature, because he has the ability to literally be anything he wants to, and he rejects that, 

I'm just talking about a waste, 

Lly: Yeah. 

Lily: Guess the other thing that happens in that scene is, to me, all the slut shaming that Odo does. He's saying that there's all the sexual programs and it's disgusting and Quark is disgusting.

but Quark, he knows himself and Odo says, You're disgusting. He says, till the day I die. 

Cole: Yeah, I like that. 

Lily: That's pretty good. 

Cole: Wow. You're, you're going to turn this episode into a masterpiece of literature, Lily, and I can't wait.

Lily: Should we move past the first scene? 

Cole: Meanwhile, upstairs in the bar, it's sex pests club. If it's Bashir and it's season 1, then he must be petulantly demanding sex from Dax. And he is, going full incel here, blaming her for his losing sleep because of the agony he suffers from her rejecting him. 

Lily: It's just, when you thought Julian was redeemable, , this conversation happens. 

Cole: He's finally [00:24:00] started to show other facets to his personality. But, I mean the, the good thing, about this episode, maybe the best thing you can say about this is that.

It's sort of the climax, horrible use of phrase, but it's the climax of Bashir's obsession with Dax. And I think they finally start to explore other aspects of this dude's personality after this episode. So that's great. 

Lily: Thank God. 

Cole: So, Bashir's being a creepo and basically blaming Dax for him losing sleep and being miserable.

Dax, in her 300 Years of Wisdom, astutely points out that he's apparently had energy for all sorts of other dalliances, and here, I don't think Dax is slut shaming at all. I think she's just ridiculing him for this notion that his happiness depends on her putting out.

right? 

Lily: I think it's, um, this sort of classic idea that he's mad that he's been friend zoned, so to speak. Yeah. Um, 

Lly: and she's 

Lily: calling him out on it. 

Cole: the fact that Bashir has been perfectly successful left and right with other women really underscores that what's hurting him the most is the rejection.

He desperately needs [00:25:00] the validation that he can get anything he wants. Correct. Going back to these, five fantasy, gosh, what do they call them in psychology? Schemas? 

Lly: Schemers!

Lily: Correct. Yeah. Yeah. mean, that's the word I was looking 

Cole: for. I feel like it's not sexual validation, even though he's obviously a sex hound. He just needs validation full stop. 

Lly: I think his pursuit of romantic validation 

Lily: is sexual in nature. 

he's clearly got a friendship with her. even though he's being, like, horrible to her. 

Cole: Yeah, she says over and over again, like, you were a good friend, which I think is giving him way too much credit.

He's a 

Lily: terrible friend. 

Cole: Yeah, And bent out of shape that he, graduated second in his class from Starfleet Med School. He just has to, get whatever he wants. He's a little kid in the holo suites.

 and thank God he finally starts growing up after this episode. 

Lily: Yeah, what a journey, though. I know, right? What an arduous journey. It's like, picking grapes off a steep incline off the banks of the Moselle. Wait, what? Well, you weren't listening to [00:26:00] me when I was talking about the region of Moselle.

Cole: What was I saying about this podcast being, intellectually elitist? 

Lily: I thought it was a succinct metaphor.

Lly: I'm approachable. 

Lily: I'm an every man. I know what you're talking about. . 

Cole: Dax tells behi to try a high-pitched sonic shower and just get over it. He says, I already have, 

Lly: Oh, poor baby. 

Cole: When Dax gets up to ops, Sisko asks how our young doctor is doing. And Dax Evergracious says, young.

Lily: And not only is it a sick burn, also, There's sort of a callback to it in a conversation that she has with Bashir later, 

Cole: which we can talk about.

Amazing. But Dax has bigger things to worry about, namely an unusual energy reading. and man, we will be hearing a lot about emissions in this episode. but you will hear about it from me as little as possible in this recap. Thanks. 

Lily: God, I want to talk about schemas. I 

Cole: know, we have more important things to talk about We [00:27:00] have fairytale schemas. 

 And the secret.

Cole: cut to the O'Brien's quarters,, and Miles is reading a bedtime story to his adorable daughter Molly. turns out he's reading, Rumpelstiltskin and he's got way better storytelling game than he had two episodes ago in the Storyteller, 

Lily: Right? He has a really good character voice for Rumpelstiltskin.

Yeah! I 

Cole: I guess it was a stage fright that got to him in that Bajoran village, but he's a great storyteller.. Side note ,

Cole: I I read up a bit on Rumpelstiltskin and its origins, and when the Grimm Brothers collected it, it had a very, soft ending for Rumpelstiltskin.

He just, like, ran off. But then a few decades later, like, in, the 1850s, they changed the ending and had Rumpelstiltskin, rip himself in half 

Lly: Okay, interesting. 

Cole: So I think Germans just like love a really screwed up ending.

so maybe the Grimms were trying to make it internationally palatable, but the Germans are like, no, no, he gets frustrated and he stomps in the ground and then gets one leg stuck in the ground. And then he tries to pull himself out, but he accidentally rips himself in [00:28:00] half in the process.

Lly: What a horrible way to go

Cole: Yeah, that's just the Germans being freaky, but thank goodness they make sweet wines. 

Lily: Whoa, was he on a steep incline when this happened? Sorry, I'll let it go. Just up the point where we can talk about Keiko's Bob? 

Cole: Yes, it's time for Keiko's Bob.

Lily: Um, I love it, and it's really triangular, and I'm here for it, and it's like kind of on trend at the moment, so go Keiko. 

Lly: Go! . 

Lily: Keiko. 

Cole: the other thing about Miles and Keiko here is that after they tuck Molly in, there is the briefest moment that tells us that yes, defying all expectations, their love life is still active.

Which is nice. It's nice to see. Apparently 

Lily: so. It's, classic amorous advance of Shall I Tuck You. in with a bedtime story. I know I love it when men say that to me. 

 Keko's into it though. 

Cole: but this adult fairy tale is not to be, because Molly bursts out of her room and says, He's in my room. side note, the actress, Hatté, who, um, played the character on The Next Generation and [00:29:00] plays Molly for all seven seasons of Deep Space Nine, Gohana.

Oh, 

Lily: I didn't realize that. 

Lly: Aw, cute. 

Cole: the actress, remembers filming this and she was actually terrified of Rumpelstiltskin and, She could barely be in the same room with the actor in his Rumpelstiltskin makeup, and she had like nightmares about it. So, yikes. Being a child actor, not easy, but Oh yeah.

Lly: that's fair, Hannah.

Cole: she says Rumpelstiltskin is in her room. Brian goes in and, yep, that's a rumple. 

Lily: There he is. 

a leprechaun. He's rebel, sis.

Cole: Yes, so you, also read that originally when the script was given to the actors, it was not Rumpelstiltskin, it was a leprechaun. And, the actor, Kolomaney, went to the producers and he said, hey, leprechauns are a very racist, a trope that Irish actors have been trying to get over for decades, which was complete news to the producers.

And so they had to frantically rewrite it, because Colm found this deeply offensive script. 

Lily: And, uh, thank god they did, because then we get Rimmelstiltskin, I guess. And then we get this 

Cole: [00:30:00] Riesling and this grim fairy tales reading. 

Lily: It's all been leading up to this. 

Cole: Did you know that leprechauns are, , an offensive racist stereotype to the Irish?

Lily: I sort of didn't know that. And I have seen, a B horror film with a very young Jennifer Aniston called Leprechaun. Oh, yeah. and Now that I think about it, it is a pretty, sort of, horrible racist depiction of, I suppose, what some people think of the Irish. 

Cole: leprechauns, very offensive.

So what we have here is, this grim fairytale creature who the writers frantically adapted the script to. And it is just one of many reasons that the script doesn't, doesn't totally gel. But here we are, 

Lly: his outfit's like, pretty lame. 

Lily: it's got some shiny fabrics and a little sort of shiny matching hat, but I am not here for it, and in my essay I will argue that Molly O'Brien is the only one bringing the outfits in this episode.

Cole: Do and Hanahate is just insanely cute in this episode. She's [00:31:00] adorable.

She's bringing it. I think she, might be MVP for best actor . 

Lly: And 

Lily: that was some method acting happening. 

Cole: Exactly. Make the child terrified. But I do also want to give a shout out to Michael John Anderson. as Rumpelstiltskin, who you, might recognize for his role in the dream sequences on Twin Peaks.

and also a starring role in Carnival, the HBO show. 

Lily: Oh, I love both of those shows. 

Cole: Yeah, he's the, um, he talks backwards in the dream sequences on Twin Peaks. 

Lily: cool. I'll re watch that. 

Cole: So Rumble Sillskin is now, marching around the O'Brien's quarters, making a mess, looking for some straw to spin into gold, supposedly, basically just being a brat.

O'Brien calls some security beefheads to come in and try to apprehend him, but he eludes them by vanishing before their eyes. do you have anything else to say about this scene? 

Lily: just that, Rumpel kind of reminds me of a cat. He's just like pushing things off shelves, walking over them, tipping things over. 

Cole: And this from a cat lover. You own two cats. 

Lly: Oh [00:32:00] yeah, but they're assholes.

Cole: They're such assholes. 

Lly: But that's part of the charm. 

Cole: And they seem intelligent, right? Like, it seems like they know exactly what they're doing to piss us off, whereas dogs just seem like idiots.

Lily: Yeah. 

Cole: And I only hang out with people who seem intelligent, which is why I'm doing this podcast with you. 

Lily: Wow.

 Same intelligence. God, you can be devastating, Cole. I can be catty 

Cole: sometimes. 

Lily: Jesus. 

Cole: Meanwhile in Sisko's quarters, baseball legend Buck Bokai of the London Kings has followed Jake Sisko home from the hollow suite. What? 

Lily: What? I don't know. 

Cole: and he seems to know Benjamin Sisko's name. He says, Hello, Ben. 

hilariously, pro baseball apparently went out of fashion in the mid 21st century, but not before, going pro in London. So apparently the Brits ruined baseball for the world.

Lily: Yeah. how likely do you think that is? 

Cole: for it to blow up in London or for it to go extinct before the end of the [00:33:00] century? 

Lily: Um, I think for the British to adopt anything 

Lly: that Americans have invented. 

Cole: look, maybe it's London, Ontario that Buck Bokai plays for.

Lly: Ooh, yeah. Yep. 

Cole: Anyways, in yet another crewman's quarters, cut to Bashir fast asleep, tossing and turning in his incredibly uncomfortable looking bed. 

When wakes up to his wildest dreams coming true, why, it's Jadzia with her hands all over him. He is convinced it must be a hallucination. And, um, maybe my favorite line from the episode. He says, It must be an allergic reaction to the antipasto he had at lunch. 

Lily: Mine too! Oh my god! 

Cole: another Ebenezer Scrooge reference.

It reminded me of that line from a. Christmas carol. There's more gravy than of grave about you, he says to Marley.

Lily: Oh my God. just being able to tie Antipasto and Dickens together. What a world. Going back [00:34:00] to us 

Cole: not being wine sipping elitist snobs. 

Lily: Um, what I will say is, First of all, to quote Odo, you're disgusting. 

Lly: Julian 

Lily: um,

Dax would never, and I'm so uncomfortable, but at least, least Julian is questioning why it's happening and assumes that one of them is sick or that it's the antipasto.

Lly: least that's his first reaction. 

Cole: Yeah. He's incredulous for like 15 seconds, but then he's like, he just happily goes along with it. Even though he and we all know that something is seriously wrong. Yeah. but too bad. So sad for him because all senior staff are suddenly called to ops.

Lily: Yeah. and then he changes tack and thinks it could be a practical joke, which is also more believable 

Lly: than Dax ever sleeping with him. 

Cole: Yep. 

Lly: she would never. 

Cole: she would never. when he and this Dax, quote unquote, get up to Ops, all of the other favorite figments of imagination are there having a sort of meet and greet.

Lly: Hmm. 

Cole: Sisko asks Dax, could those pesky Thauron missions be behind this? And Dax has [00:35:00] absolutely no idea what he's talking about because she's a figment of Julian's imagination, who is obviously not actually that smart. Interesting

Lily: Yeah, weirdly, Julian fantasizes that, she is a dumb bimbo. 

Cole: Hmm.

Interesting. and that's when real Dax coolly enters from the turbo lift. And this bit actually really annoys me because she steps out of the turbo lift and says, I think you'd better ask me, Benjamin, and shoots a sort of unimpressed look at sex kitten Dax. And like, okay, we know Dax wise and cool and collected, but you're not the least bit concerned that.

another version of you is like pretending to be you you shouldn't like concern you at all. 

Lily: I feel like she's very wise and quick. And she's also spied Rumpelstiltskin and a random baseball player and pieced it together. And, side note, Sisko does like the funniest quizzical face of recognition of what's going on. it's an amazing bit of acting by Avery Brooks. So, 

Cole: Avery Brooks does overact sometimes and sometimes his humorous [00:36:00] reaction faces are hilariously over the top.

Lily: Um, I. Now love them. I don't know what to tell 

Cole: you. 

so baseball great Buck Bokai is just sitting there in ops getting scanned, praising Jake's progress at the bat lately. He seems like the real deal. He somehow remembers all of Bokai's greatest moments and stats, but meanwhile Bashir is having to literally fight sex, kit and dax off of him, which is truly a taste of his own medicine. 

Lly: hm.

Cole: and actual Jadzia is just looking on quietly amused. they're trying to figure out what's going on and Bashir manages to admit that maybe this, sex hungry, obsessed version of Dax might have come out of his imagination. 

Lly: Oh, yeah, you think?

Cole: And then when he gets fed up with her and insists he doesn't have time for her and casts her off of him, she disappears. 

Lily: Mmm. The secret. Ha ha ha 

Cole: ha 

Lily: ha 

Cole: ha ha. Mmm, perhaps. Odo messages in from the promenade letting them know that it's snowing down there. [00:37:00] We suddenly see this alternative career for Odo as a weather forecaster.

He's like, we're looking at five or six centimeters down here. 

Lily: Oh my 

Cole: god, 

Lily: some Bajoran down on the promenade's been reading too much Dickens.

Cole: I was wondering who down there is like dreaming of a white Christmas? I don't know. someone was just reading the Christmas carol. That explains it. There's suddenly some street urchin begging for coins from Quark. 

Lly: Please, sir. 

Cole: singing Good King Wenceslas. 

Lily: Yeah, a well loved text by Cole. Oh. Um, 

Lly: I, I've also seen it.

Cole: world. if I were on deep space nine, Kermit, AKA, Bob Crochet would just be hanging out with me singing about Christmas and it'd be really nice. Yeah, I, that's what I think about on a daily basis 

Lly: that's as far 

Lily: That's as far as Cole's fantasies go. The end. No follow up questions. , 

Cole: my story and I'm sticking to it. Sisko deduces [00:38:00] everyone seems to be, quote, letting their imaginations run wild and puts the station on yellow alert. which gives us one of the, more ridiculous quotes of the episode Kira says, yellow alert against our own imaginations. 

Lily: Kira. 

Cole: but Dax may have an explanation, that plasma field thingamabob out in space looks like a big black hole sucking everything into it, and technobabble words 

Lily: Blah blah blah.

Cole: And then, Cut back to Odo on the Promenade, where things are getting even zanier. The snows disappeared, but now there's a Gungi Jackdaw running loose, a. k. a. an Emu, run loose on the Promenade. 

Lily: that's an Emu, native to Australia, 

Lly: so that's pretty much my brethren 

Cole: Poor Odo is sort of reduced to being like a hapless mall cop in this episode. he spends all his time just chasing after things on the promenade and here he is just sort of, telling this emu, come along now, come along. 

Lily: No, no, I loved this scene because Odo is so crotchety with everyone else, but he's so polite to this emu.

Lly: He like bows to it and ushers it 

Lily: It's like, [00:39:00] I don't know, they're like kindred spirits or something. 

Cole: He only smiles at children and he's only polite to animals. he's a little softy. 

Lily: Yeah. Does that 

Cole: tell us about Odo? And, fun fact, I read that, an emu handler on set is dressed up as a Bajoran monk in the background.

Lily: Oh, God. I didn't even think about that. 

Cole: so, Odo gets the memo that people are imagining things and it's getting out of control, so walks into Quark's and tries to get everyone's attention.

This is really interesting. He says, Ladies and gentlemen and all androgynous creatures. 

Lily: Creatures, yeah. 

Cole: and going back to like, Odo limiting himself, I mean, this is the 90s, but if this show were made today, wouldn't Odo be non gendered or androgynous or definitely mix it up all the time.

there's sort of an in universe explanation. he bases his identity off this Bajoran man who studied him when he was younger. And I guess there's also an in universe explanation that Odo is limiting himself by trying to conform to the world around him, which is [00:40:00] obviously gendered.

So, fine. can forgive Deep Space Nine for this. 

Lily: And look, some might argue that, uh, Odo has some androgynous qualities. 

Lly: Some might argue against that! 

Cole: Are you referencing a conversation I had with David Livingston? 

Lily: I can't stop. It's pathological. That um, Odo is kind of looking at Morn when he says this. I looked this up, yeah. 

Cole: Morn, might be non binary. 

Lily: I mean, makes sense to me. 

Cole: respects him,. kindred spirits. 

Lily: you know, hairs on foreheads, that's, that's genderless, 

Cole: Morn has the Charlie Brown hairstyle. 

Lly: the body of the Michelin Man. 

Cole: So Odo gets everyone's attention and he says, Please refrain from using your imaginations. Um, And that's when Quark descends the stairs and we learn that Quark has, I don't know, , the imagination of some retired guy on holiday in Vegas cause he's got these leggy Vegas showgirl women with him draped [00:41:00] over his arm. 

Lly: Ooh! 

Lily: I was going to say the imagination of a 12 year old boy who has just seen Star Wars for the first time and seen, slave princess Leia's outfit. That's what I was getting. 

And there's some really good earrings that I want as well. which are like a blue and purple gradient and they look like little fans, 

add it to the list of things you can buy me for my birthday. 

Cole: Yeah. I don't want to spend a lot of time evaluating their fashions, 

Lily: Okay, wow. 

Cole: I just don't want to spend that much time in Quark's imagination. 

I don't want to play in Quark's brain, but Oh, she has a tattoo! She does. 

Lily: Yeah, there's a lot going on. side note, pretty much everyone in Quarks, is wearing mustard. And it hurts my eyes. 

Cole: But, all of the patrons at Quarks Bar know the secret. Because they are all winning at the dabo wheel. And, um, Odo delights in pointing this out to Quark Quark freaks out and starts going around trying to imagine all of his patrons losing, but as Odo points out, he's [00:42:00] outnumbered.

Lily: Yeah, that's true. 

Cole: really random side note, Quark wants to show those ladies on his arms his collection of Tartarus landscapes and I learned in my research, on battle lines that Tartarus is an ancient term for hell. 

Lily: So Quark's like, 

Cole: let me show you my collection of hell landscapes, which is a super weird thing to try to impress girls with.

Lily: I mean, I guess in his fantasy. It's beautiful women who accept him for exactly who he is and validate him. 

Cole: All right. can't, you can't begrudge Quark for that, can you? God, you are No, 

Lily: it's just, he's gross. He's a gross dude. But yeah, do think it's all coming from a place of validation.

Sexual 

Cole: I think we know which schema he fits into. 

Lily: Yes, we do. 

Cole: Quark knows the secret, whether we like it or not.

Lily: Until it doesn't serve him anymore. 

Cole: Indeed, There is this thing, which I think is true, towards the end of the documentary, they argue that the reason a lot of [00:43:00] us don't believe in the secret is that we believe in scarcity, and we just assume that there's a scarcity of Desired things on Earth, but, the documentary that there's not, there's actually enough for everyone.

There's enough of what everyone wants, 

Lly: Ugh, makes me so mad.

Lily: Yeah, 

Cole: but again, he's right and he's wrong, there is an abundance of love and community, but maybe we just want all the wrong things, which is Ferraris. And there is a scarcity of Ferraris.

So But 

Lily: what about places where there's actual scarcity? Like what about poverty? I just don't, it's just yucky. 

Cole: there's actually more than enough food on the planet to feed everyone, but it's in the hands of. 

Lily: in the hands of very few people. And I'll tell you what, the secret does not help those people.

Yeah, they say at the beginning , 

Cole: They're like, the 1% ers know the secret. That's why they're so rich. no, they're actually, they're assholes. That's why they're so rich they could also feed the entire planet. so that's where it gets disgusting and they have these anecdotes of people who are like I wanted a [00:44:00] Mansion with a tennis court and a swimming pool and then I got it.

And so I think If the secret works great But I think we all need to maybe have a close look at what we want in life and what makes us happy Anyways, deeply problematic and you know that like, Donald Trump believes in the secret. yeah. and maybe, maybe you and I need take a page from these assholes who really do just take what they want from the world, I just think too many people want the wrong things.

Lily: Yeah, I think we can agree on that. it's just so individualistic,

it's a worldview that I don't think should be encouraged.

Cole: That was the grossest thing about it, but they did get into politics towards the end. And, that was actually the one thing I started to really like about it. They talked about how, you should stop focusing on what you don't like in the world and start focusing on what you want to see.

So, like, if you're anti war, don't go to an anti war rally, go to a peace rally. and if you really don't like a politician, don't, campaign against him. Campaign for who you want, and , holy smokes, if I could tell that to the entire American public, and the entire Democratic [00:45:00] Party, like, we all need to just get over Donald Trump. you resist persists, they argue, the more you dwell on something, most people are thinking about what they don't want and they wonder why it shows up over and over again. 

Lily: Yeah. Interesting. No, that's an interesting perspective. 

Cole: right? the media just talks about how heinous Trump is, but it's like we're feeding the trolls, then he gets all the attention and all the publicity, and then it's all anyone thinks about, 

Um, that's the secret, Lily. 

Lily: Okay, the secret. 

 . 

Cole: So, in the science lab, Dax and Bashir are silencing. When Dax discovers that that space rupture out there is doing exactly what she was worried it would and getting bigger, 

Lily: what a secretive coincidence.

Cole: What? Bashir, though, takes a quiet moment to very awkwardly try to address the elephant in the room. You heard about that elephant in the secret. But for him, it is that sex kitten version of Dax. Dax interrupts him. She says, you know what? It's fine. In a [00:46:00] way, I feel like we've invaded your privacy. We all have fantasies and dreams we keep to ourselves.

And frankly, , respect to Jadzia. That is a very enlightened view. But also, Bashir freaking deserves this humiliation based on his behavior all season. Totally. she's playing it pretty cool. She's like, after all, I was a young man once, so she gets being a horndog. 

Lily: Yes, so this is the callback to that original scene of that exchange she has with Sisko.

How's our young doctor? 

Cole: Yes, totally young. . 

Lily: She knows what it's like to be a young man, and there's a part of her that can sort of forgive it, I suppose. 

Cole: Oh, and look, am I a gross horny man? sure, but do I it's what you do with it, isn't it?

It's what you do with it. 

Lily: Yeah.. 

Cole: But, Jadzia ain't done. 

Lily: No. Thank God. 

Cole: There's this delicious pause. this is far and away the best scene in the episode, right? It is. after this delicious pause, she says, she really is submissive, isn't she?

And that is fascinatingly when sex kitten Dax suddenly shows up again. 

Lily: Yeah. 

Cole: So [00:47:00] it's almost like Dax being difficult and speaking up for herself makes Bashir manifest the submissive version of her, which is kind of gross. 

Lily: It's the self fulfilling prophecy 

Cole: Yeah. And so SimpDax is like, I'm not submissive.

Am I? Yuck. Yuck. It's kind of And then she, I love this line. Bashir's Fever Dream version of Dax turns to Jadzia and says, I'm just not the cold fish you are. 

Lily: Because apparently another part of Julian's fantasy life is women hating on women. 

Cole: right? 

Lily: Or hating themselves.

Hate yourself more, Dax. That's hot. 

Cole: she was like, uh, she just has a sense of humor as I've always imagined you do, which is like, stop talking now, bro. Jadzia says, Hmm, I could use a sense of humor right about now.

Snaps, girl. We stan you. 

Lily: It's also so interesting, because how on earth does Bashir know [00:48:00] anything about Dax? Because he's constantly, from the very first episode, projecting onto her. his own fantasy of her

Cole: Oh yeah. he hasn't taken a moment to know anything about her, Absolutely. Knows 

Lily: nothing. And we all know Dax has a great sense of humor. 

Cole: She just keeps rejecting him. That's all he knows about her, and that's all, that's all he needs to know. 

Lily: there's one point where the fantasy Dax accuses the real Dax of having fantasies about Julian that she's denying herself. 

 do you think, I mean, obviously this is all smoke and mirrors, but do you think there's any part of that that's true? 

Cole: we learn, it's not a spoiler to say that, we learn in season seven that Jadzia had harbored some romantic attraction to Julian. He's an attractive dude, he's intelligent, she forgives him to some extent for being young, quote unquote, so maybe Jadzia sees his potential. 

Cole: Do you? 

Lily: Um, yeah, look, I think there [00:49:00] could be the tiniest kernel of truth in it. 

Cole: Okay. 

Lily: 

I mean, she's seen it all, done it all. She knows potential. 

Cole: And you know, sometimes it's fun. What? , I don't know. 

Lily: Cole exists on a plane of only talking to Kermit the frog in his fantasy.

So we'll just move on from that.

Cole: if Cole's wishes were horses, he'd be hanging out with Kermit the frog. Yeah. Sure. But we interrupt this train wreck to raise the stakes. The computer has found a match to that space anomaly outside.

It's acting just like anomaly from a hundred years ago. And when that rupture expanded, it destroyed an entire star system. 

Lily: Oh, a self fulfilling prophecy again. 

Cole: speak. Spoil it. Sorry. Really. Sorry. Meanwhile, more than half the people on the station report manifestations of their imagined thoughts.

This is getting out of hand. bro Rumpley is pestering O'Brien, tauntingly saying that O'Brien's [00:50:00] afraid of little Rumpelstiltskin, and afraid of the power of his own imagination. And, another fantastic bit of dialogue. O'Brien says, look figment. I'm not afraid of anybody. Least of all you. I'm going to tell that to my fears and anxieties now.

Look figment. 

Lily: I'm not afraid of anybody, and you know when people yell that, they clearly don't have any, internalized fears going on. 

Cole: and Rumpelisties right through it. 

Lily: He does? 

Cole: he obliquely, makes a threat against Miles's daughter Molly, 

Lily: Yes.

Cole: and Holy Smokes, the worried imaginations of young parents really are the devil's playground, right? Yes, 

Lily: Yeah. The fear and anxiety surrounding, having a child. I don't have one, nor do you, and yay our lives are amazing, but I do live with my sister who has a son and, Yeah, I think sort of just this constant thing that weighs on you that something terrible could happen.

Cole: Yeah I always think that scene of [00:51:00] Mrs. Weasley in Harry Potter where the only clock that she ever pays attention to just shows how close any of her children are to impending doom and peril. 

Lily: yeah, yikes.

Cole: so Miles is deep in the fear anxiety schema of imagination here. It sure is, yeah. 

Meanwhile, down on the promenade. Baseball great Buck Bokai just wants to play catch with Sisko. Yikes. Someone's got daddy issues. Am I right? Oh, heh heh. this poor baseball player is having some sort of existential crisis.

it doesn't help that Sisko is just admitting to hoping that he disappears into non existence. But Buck plays the sympathy card, Alla Coco, aka the saddest Pixar movie, he says, Ben, you're the only one who remembers baseball anymore.

Don't forget me. 

Lily: Oh,

Cole: , right. It's very Coco. And suddenly there's this second sub theme or subplot about anthropomorphizing, leisure activities that have gone out of fashion. I don't know what's going on here. 

Lily: Oh, interesting. [00:52:00] okay. Let me unpick this. See, what I was kind of thinking is, so they sort of go into the fact that Sisko sort of has a parasocial relationship with this character from history, that this person's kind of a hero to him, in 

Cole: fact.

Lily: And that when he thinks of this person, he thinks of them incredibly fondly and can, um, list off all their achievements, 

Cole: which is why this figment knows all of his stats and, greatest moments because it's actually Benjamin's imagination and he remembers all this stuff.

Lily: Yeah. And I think there's a part of Sisko that's actually having a wonderful time, spending time with his hero. Even though it's, uh, obviously an anomaly Sisko also winks, he also winks at the figment 

Cole: Yeah. I thought it was this weird sort of concession. 

Lily: And who is it 

Cole: for? It's great. Well, I thought he was like, I want to will you out of existence, but here's a cute little wink from me.

figment of imagination's emotions.

Lily: Okay. 

I think it's for himself. 

Cole: Okay, I don't really know what they're trying to say with this storyline, except I guess, [00:53:00] relationship is good, that you sort of , turn people into heroes in your mind, maybe more than they are, like, Shimmerman is even more of an amazing human in our minds than he is in real life, but I beg to disagree because I'm pretty convinced he's an amazing person.

Lily: I feel like, another Best Friends Club just waiting to happen. 

Cole: Yeah, it's, the interview will happen, and Armin, let us know when you're ready. 

Lily: Uh, side note, There are some really great extras in this scene. 

In particular, there's a lilac colored tall orc, who has both the costume and demeanor of Han Solo. 

Cole: There is, the sparkly purple suited alien who, collaborated with Vantika and got killed for it. He's definitely walking around in this episode. Did you see him? 

Lily: I did. 

Cole: But Hark, It is big reveal time for this episode. 

Lily: fantasies.

Cole: All of our favorite figments from Buck Bokai to Rumply Stiltskin to Sex Kitten Dax are huddling in secret and [00:54:00] reporting back to each other.

Apparently they've each been assigned to each of the officers they've been harassing all episode. Rumply and Dax seem kind of over it, but Buck says, We keep at it for as long as it takes. And, uh, looks like we've got ourselves some sort of alien research experiment, filed under most overused Star Trek tropes. 

Lily: there's something else that happens in this mating of the fantasies. 

Cole: Go on. Um, 

Lily: they question why they were created. 

And, have they just been listening to Billie Eilish, What Was I Made For? Uh, maybe.

Cole: They seem as confused about what they're doing here as all of us in the audience. 

Lily: Look, they didn't get my five point plan about, fantasies and characterization and schemers. They need 

Cole: you. 

Lily: They do. You are a construct that exists to understand why, Julian Bashir is gross. The end.

Cole: These aliens are the secret and they don't even know it. 

Lily: Oh, shit. 

Cole: [00:55:00] It's a secret 

Lily: themselves. L. Hubbard, eat your heart out. 

Cole: L. Ron Hubbard. L. Ron Hubbard. 

surprise, that space vacuum anomaly just keeps getting bigger. And in Sisko's office, everyone's getting worried. Turns out that that last time an anomaly like this was seen, Some Vulcans tried firing at it. And the whole thing blew up and eviscerated a whole star system. But these Vulcans hadn't reported seeing any weird figments of their imagination. to which Bashir says, well, Vulcans don't have the most active imaginations.

And, um, I bet you sure wish you were a Vulcan right now. Hmm, Julian. But even though shooting some weapons at it didn't work before, they all still decide that's the best course of action. Um, I guess because they've got bigger and better guns now than they had a hundred years ago. 

Lily: Sure.

 And wow, , our Starfleet heroes have never acted more like American army generals in Vietnam.

Cole: But sure, 

Lily: fix it with torpedoes. That 

Cole: And Kira of all people is the only one who thinks this is a horrible idea, because it does [00:56:00] threaten her entire solar system. So yeah, . We feel you, Kira. . But it's Kira's job to go evacuate all the upper pylons in case this plan goes horribly awry.

 So she goes alone to an upper pylon and she steps out under this quiet, is kind of a creepy scene. She's all alone, and then suddenly a gigantic fireball sweeps down the corridor towards her.

A man runs at her screaming, engulfed in flames, only to suddenly disappear along with the fire when Kira crouches in horror. and yeah, of course, Kira is the one who dies. with a traumatic, horrific imagination. I mean, girls got PTSD. 

Lily: It's so sad. And you know what?

I think, credit to the writers. this is part of what makes me empathize with, Kira. she's the, product of childhood trauma. she was raised in an occupation, and fought a war when she was probably a very, very young person. So yeah, her imagination, it revolves around destruction and violence and fear.

Cole: Yeah, it's when I kind of started to respect this episode for what it was going for, because [00:57:00] even I'd been thinking, watching it, well, what about everyone's worst fears and anxieties? And here they are, this poor woman with PTSD. So she's definitely in the fear and anxiety schema of fantasizing, isn't she? So, Odo is chasing some emus on the promenade, telling onlookers, this isn't a show. Side note on the emus, but if all those other figments are Like, investigating humanity? , what are these emus investigating? Like, 

Lily: I don't want to say this again to you, Cole, but just really try not to yuck someone's yum.

Like, we don't know why those emus are there, they're clearly important. 

Cole: there's guj, whatever they're called, like Jarjuk Gujads or whatever, they've been around. Jackdaws. Thank you, Gunji Jagdas. They've been around a while. So someone is just clinging to this idea of theseus and I, I wanna know what's going on for this person and more importantly, what schema are they a hero?

Are they a savior ? Like what? What's going on in their [00:58:00] fantasy world? Yeah. 

Lily: Are they fear based? Are they sexual validation based? 

Cole: Is this revenge based? Are they trying to Yeah. Are they trying to get revenge against Odo? 

Lily: Oh my god. It's, no, Nogs fantasy is to have these Es packet OTOs, spongy body.

Cole: And quite frankly, Nog masters the secret more than anyone on this show, So no wonder truly he's just send, he's sending those emus down the promenade on repeat. 

Lily: is solved. It step one of the secret. manifest revenge against your Enemies. . Step two, join star lead 

Cole: Cork chases odo down and says he wants to file a missing persons report because two ladies in, princess Leia bikinis have gone missing. 

Lily: Oh no. 

Cole: Mall Cop Odo says he doesn't have time because he's been dealing with incarnations of the prophets, long dead lovers, trollops, 

Lily: Slutshamer. 

Cole: more slut shaming. Lily, , if you were hanging out on the [00:59:00] promenade, what would Odo be contending with? 

Lily: same, same. , emus, you know. 

Cole: All day, you dream about emus. 

Lily: All day, all night. okay. Interesting. Well, I guess it depends where I fall in the schema. 

Cole: Indeed. we save this question for our wrap up?

Yeah, let's 

Lily: save it for the end. Because I have to 

Cole: congitate. but Quark, Quark's letting himself get distracted with the fears and anxieties. he is not. The king of the sexual validation scheme anymore because his ladies have gone missing And he's like Odo haven't you been dreaming anything up and Odo says he doesn't have time but guess what Odo's got a little fantasy life too because He looks inside the jail cells and security and he finds Quark there, locked up.

 Odo, you , freaky dude. 

Lily: Wow, you went straight to the sexual validation. Um, 

Cole: that say about your 

Lily: fantasy life? [01:00:00] no, I was thinking poor Odo, because the limit to his imagination is just putting Quark in jail. not like a very rich fantasy life. he does seem tickled by it. And, I would argue there's a pretty strong contender for what's game man. 

Cole: Revenge? 

Lily: Revenge fantasy. 

Cole: Yep. Did you 

Lily: We've seen Les Mis, and we've we've 

Cole: this Javert, our bro Javert, who's weirdly infatuated with Valjean. did you like this a little bit or would you have cut it 

Lily: um, look, I like the idea of, the revenge plot for Odo, as like part of the tapestry of his fantasy life, I don't know. What do you think? 

Cole: I, this is a no from me, First of all, I've said before, Quark does break the law, like, every episode. So, he could be behind bars if Odo wanted him to be. and I agree with you, this is such a piddly, use of fantasy life, even for Odo, already admitted a few episodes ago that he dreams of finding his people.

Like, if he were looking in mirror of Erised to, uh, to borrow something from Ms. Rowling, would not see Quark in prison, he would see his [01:01:00] family. so this is not, 

Lily: But maybe, okay, maybe,

this is all that Odo, this is just a snippet of his fantasy life.

This is all he can really admit to himself and to again borrow from, Harry Potter, when Harry asked Dumbledore what he sees in the mirror, he says, something like a a new pair of socks because no one ever buys that for me. They always get me books. 

Cole: Yeah, which is a lie.

Yeah, maybe 

Lily: it's partly true, but your deepest, darkest desires and fantasies is not something that you will reveal so easily. 

Cole: Dumbledore would see his kid sister and his lover Grindelwald not being evil. He would not see a new pair of socks. 

Lily: correct. and I think also likewise, Odo he's too closed off to actually reveal to us, the viewer, what his true fantasy is.

Cole: True. Okay. great analysis, moving right along. oh, and now for truly, now for my nomination for the most pointless scene in all of Star Trek. , we go to the Sisko's quarters where Jake is doing some homework and I would put good money [01:02:00] on makers of this episode just running under time.

And so they were forced to keep this in , but maybe you're going to prove me because you've been You've been going deep in this episode, but what we have here, Jake's doing some homework when Buck Bokai shows up and tries to entice him into a sinful game of baseball and lure him away from his homework.

And we hear like the roar of a baseball stadium, which I guess, as you said earlier, is Jake dreaming of being baseball legend instead of a little kid doing his homework, but it just plays out like some PSA about saying no to drugs, like. Hey kids, don't give in to your darkest temptations to play baseball and do your homework.

because Jake just says no, and that's the scene. 

Lily: Okay, can I give you my analysis of this? Oh no, yeah, here we go. so yes, I think you're right. However, I think what Jake is really fantasizing about in this scene. is uh, being able to lie to his father. 

Cole: Let me go on. 

Lily: [01:03:00] yeah, as a way to get out of homework. And, he doesn't, I don't know. He, he's sort of not fighting the fantasy in a way he's sort of, working his way through it in a way that I think is reminiscent of what 

Cole: Let me go 

Lily: on. So it's like a very, the dog ate my homework kind of thing.

He's fantasizing like, well, maybe I could say something went wrong with the program or whatever. Um, and he practices it and he practices it with this fake Sisko, yeah, as a way to get out of homework. And, he's sort of not fighting the fantasy in a way he's sort of, working his way through it in a way that I think is reminiscent of what childhood is like with your imagination.

you're just flowing with it. It's just this sort of, 

Cole: you're trying thoughts on for size. 

Lily: Exactly. this more, organic plastic way that children just have this innate ability to do that sort of gets switched off when you become an adult and you maybe get, trapped in these schemas and then also, feel like the conclusion of this scene is quite sad, because he, manages to shut down his imagination by thinking about, the responsibility that he has and the responsibility he has to his [01:04:00] father, and adulthood sucks. So he's like 

Cole: stifling his childhood Yes. His dreams and fantasies to mold himself into who his father wants him to be. you read that scene for filth and I'm impressed. 

Lily: That's the best compliment anyone's ever given me. 

Cole: might I just say how the turntables have turned. We all remember episode one of this podcast, Lily was , not ready for my deep shakes and here we are. She is psychoanalyzing Jake in the most throwaway scene of the most throwaway episode and I'm here for it.

Lily: Look. 

 okay, I don't want to jump the gun, but I think that my fantasy is to be able to look at other people's fantasies and have that give me an insight into who they are. 

Cole: That would be terrifying. Why do you want that? 

Lily: I think I'm interested in what makes people tick.

Cole: No, I am [01:05:00] too. I think I'm just afraid of the truth, frankly, I'm afraid of, but I'm afraid of knowing everyone's deepest fantasies because I might discover the world is as dark or even darker than I already think it is. 

Lily: You might discover that someone just like really loves emus 

Cole: You would see so many Princess Leia bikinis, 

Lily: No, you're right. But it depends on who you know.

You know, 

Cole: I mean, you know me. Yeah. Nevermind. Okay, so Baseball . 

Lily: Kermit the Frog. 

Cole: Kermit the Frog. 

Lily: Someday we'll find it. That Rainbow Connection. , 

Cole: the Lovers, the Dreamers, and me. Aw, . That should have been our framing for this discussion. The Rainbow Connection. Oh. Isn't, isn't that what this episode is about?

Oh. Maybe. I think it is. Jake's part of the Rainbow Connection. look, maybe he'll find it again, but right now he's trying to be. what his father wants him to be. 

All right, [01:06:00] back in Ops, Dax's worst fears are coming true because that rift is growing and just more evidence to my theory that the episode was running under time.

There's a very drawn out sequence where every single character on Ops and every figment of the imagination looks ominously at this growing black hole thing. And it's like a Bollywood soap opera. They're just staring at it for like a minute and then it cuts to commercial break. love me some Bollywood soap opera drama.

Lily: What? This has happened in many episodes and I 

Cole: So, this brings us to the gripping conclusion. Subdax is up there on ops and she's scared. She asks Bashir to hold her and make her feel safe.

Which I think seals the fate of, Bashir's, fantasy schema. He wants to be a hero. that is his ultimate dream, to be a hero to Dax. Be that knight in shining armor, right? 

Lily: And to be needed.

Cole: And to be needed. In fact, I think that would be a lot of people's fantasies. Besides the Princess Leia bikinis, it would just be like fantasizing about being [01:07:00] needed. And I think that would break my heart. 

So there you go. they fire their big bazooka space weapons at that black hole thing, pew pew, and then what unfolds is approximately 92 minutes of technobabble, But, oh no, something's going wrong. Kira says perimeter sensors are picking up a subspace oscillation. What the hell does that mean?

And like, Preach Girl, you and I are on the same page this episode. 

Lily: yeah, it sucks.

Cole: There's 76 more minutes of Technobabble before, the rift goes boom, boom. Everyone on the station gets tossed around. Fake sex kitten Dax is horribly injured. So that Bashir gets to tend to her. It's kind of bizarre to think that, Bashir might have even imagined fake Dax getting injured so that he could treat her.

I mean, that's Of course he did. Of course he did. This is not, the first time on the show that he has, in fact, wished people unwell so that he can treat them. He did it to Vosh when she showed up. So wants to show off his doctoring skills and be the hero. 

Lily: I just need to say, Munchausen by proxy 

Cole: Oh my gosh, hundred percent. Julian. [01:08:00] Oh, you're a monster. 

Lily: Because it's about him. It's all about him.

Cole: well for once our scientists Dax and O'Brien have run flat out of ideas.

This big black hole vacuum thing is about to take everyone out and suck the station into it. Rumpelstiltskin is banging around and he's got a wild suggestion. He can rescue them all for the price of O'Brien's daughter. And he snaps his fingers and, Keiko and Molly show up in ops. and here, okay. I actually read in a forum, someone did a bit of analysis on this, and they were interpreting it as a peek into a Brian's deepest psyche, where he in fact does maybe live in constant fear of having to choose between work and family, or having to put his family in harm's way on this remote outpost.

And I thought that was interesting. 

Lily: Correct. Yeah. never has to answer that hypothetical. 

Cole: I guess not. I wonder if they explore this anymore, because it is compelling. torture O'Brien all the time, they orchestrate these absurd scenarios to [01:09:00] torture Miles.

But this small scene tells us that actually all they have to do is make him worried about his family's safety. And I'm not sure the show does that enough 

Lily: no, but I want to go deeper on that because I don't think it's just his worry about his family.

I think that he is being asked, this huge philosophical question, the one or the many, you know, it's like the trolley problem, but with 

Cole: Yep. 

Lily: your daughter 

Cole: Yep. Yep.

Lily: So whose life is more important, every single person on this station and on Bajor or your daughter. And it's not like O'Brien screams out, no, you can't have her.

He's conflicted. And then Sisko has to step in. I mean, the fear that he has is probably the of himself and what 

Cole: he would do. And the decision he would make. I guess I, I wish this dilemma had cropped up in an episode where the stakes were more real, frankly, because that's good stuff, that's good drama, 

Lily: But look, I think it's, what you gotta take from these Klunker episodes is that it's all, to be this dead metaphor, weaving The [01:10:00] rich tapestry of Deep Space Nine and the characters of Deep Space Nine.

Cole: And the characters. Yeah. 

I think, a huge, like, You and I are not as in love with Discovery as we were with Deep Space Nine, and I think a huge reason is that there's only 10 episodes per season, and there's never just like light character moments, so we still barely know these characters. We don't get to know, you know, the things we could have learned from Tilly or Michael Burnham in a filler episode like this that would have made the stakes higher.

 That's valid. Same with, 

Lily: yeah.

Cole: Strange New Worlds, yeah. 

Lily: but not just to dunk on those, and back to something that, uh, renowned director David Livingstone was talking about. Um, the scenes have to feel like life or death. The emotional states have to at all times.

And I think, 

Cole: yes, 

Lily: I think in this episode, even though, it's not a super refined episode. it's not a glass of, Riesling from Moselle, for example, but um, I think it is kind of achieving these emotional states for the characters, or for some of them at least.

Kira, [01:11:00] definitely. Absolutely. Brian, 

Cole: even Bashir, his story arc, if we're gonna call it that, comes to a head in this episode, where he has to confront the fact that he is, He's obsessed, that he's like addicted to this puerile fantasy. And I think the humiliation he faces hopefully finally gets him off it.

 Some really intense character stuff is happening here. I agree. so Sisko is the one to break this high stakes tension, with a light bulb moment. says, well, wait a minute. Dax imagined that this might be a subspace rupture. So what if everyone just starts to. Imagine that it's not a threat.

And, um, hello, someone read The Secret. And, confess, I actually liked this bit. You sort of learn that this episode is all about self fulfilling prophecies. And, if you just stop. believing the worst, then you're not stoking the, you're not feeding coal to the fire, right? 

Lily: Fanning the flames of collective anxiety.

Cole: Oof, exactly. He says, believe it Mr. O'Brien, it's important that you believe it, which is definitely a direct quote from the secret documentary. They say that like five times. [01:12:00] 

Lily: God, they did watch this. You're so right., they were dead into Deep Space Nine. 

Cole: So rift magically goes away. And, Sisko, has a nice thesis statement for the episode. He says, now I'd like everyone to stop speculating and just focus on the facts, which is, 

Lily: uh, 

Cole: perhaps a nice lesson for these trying times. 

Lily: All should have listened to Odo from the very beginning, 

Cole: actually. 

Lily: I guess.

. Yeah. There's one last scene. Crisis abated, Sisko retreats to his office to find baseball legend Buck Bokai waiting for him there. And Buck confesses that they are in fact aliens from the Gamma Quadrant on some deep space mission of exploration.

Cole: They've been watching them all Quote, trying to figure out the rules of your game. And, uh, Sisko's like, yo, you could have just said hello. And Buck's like, we've learned that you can never tell how someone will treat the visiting team. great baseball 

Lily: references. This show loves baseball metaphors.

Cole: They really go [01:13:00] hard for the Godfather in baseball. 

Lily: They 

Cole: and then Buck Bokai waxes philosophical about the power of imagination. He says, It was your imaginations that created everything. This imagination of yours, we've never seen anything like it.

It's very real to all of you, yet it's not. At first it seemed to all of us to be a curse, an irritation, a waste of time, and, uh, he says, I wonder if you appreciate how unique that imagination of yours really is. which first of all, like, is it that unique? Because all the aliens on the station were imagining things. like, also, if this is the first time these non corporeal aliens have ever encountered imagination, like, how did they even know what to do? I mean, weren't they all feeding off of their imagination? I don't think anyone Has any idea what was actually going on during the whole episode, which is fine, I guess.

Lily: And I was sort of thinking about, the wormhole aliens, the prophets, and how that's done quite [01:14:00] elegantly, sort of linear, non linear existence. And so I guess we are supposed to think that these aliens exist somewhere without imagination. very muddled, isn't it?

Cole: It's pretty muddled. the thought occurred to me that this might have been cleaner if it had been the Prophets because they actually they visit the Prophets very rarely in the series and this could have been a sort of interesting visit from the Prophets somehow, but instead it's these aliens who don't make a lot of sense.

And the conclusion is like, believe in the beautiful power of your imagination. Even though we also just saw how imagination nearly destroyed the entire station and Otto was right. So very dubious conclusions. there's this , hilariously savage bit. At the very end, Cisco's like, well, you haven't told us anything about your species.

And buck's. Like, I'd like to maybe next year. Which, damn, is like the most classic. don't call us. We'll call you. 

Lily: Yeah, it's rough. It's 

Cole: like the end of a date when someone's like, see you [01:15:00] around. 

Lily: He's like, I have looked into your fantasy life and I am no longer interested. 

Cole: I'm not impressed.

Yeah. Maybe next year and spoiler alert, they don't come back next year. They

Lily: never come back. 

Cole: The aliens leave and Sisko is left clutching his precious baseball. And apparently, this is actually the episode where he gets that legendary baseball. And we see it. for the rest of the show. So that's a nice, little, factoid that I didn't know about this episode before. 

Lily: Yeah. So it's like, you have a one night stand with someone.

They say, I'll call you in a year or something. And then they never do, but they leave a cool chachki that is yours to keep.

Um, so I have one thing I want to talk about just from, the penultimate scene, where the anomaly, is sort of threatening to, rip the station apart, like a rumpel stilt skin.

Cole: Oof, nice callback.

Lily: Thank you. yes, so there's the collective anxiety. Self fulfilling prophecy of, DAXs, [01:16:00] ideas about what's gonna happen and, what senior officers think is going to happen. let's think about Cisco for a moment and think about Mm.

his past, when his wife died and how this transpired, is basically in this catastrophic situation where he couldn't save everybody. 

Cole: Oof.

Lily: Is it possible that the anomaly it's just occurred to me, that the way that Sisko is able to clear headedly save the situation, save the station, save Bajor, is his fantasy?

 and what we're seeing 

Cole: play out is Whoa. Yes. So, Sisko being able to be the hero and save everyone is his imagination and his fantasy. Billy, honestly, this episode, you have just Thank you. What was I saying about me only hanging out with people who seem intelligent?

I'd like to rescind that from the record. Um, I only hang out with [01:17:00] brilliant people. so he's, you talked about hero schema versus savior schema. Yes. is Cisco dreaming of being a savior? Is that his fantasy? I 

Lily: think so. I think that's his ultimate fantasy. 

Cole: Bashir both want to be saviors, but, Sisko has actually lived through what it's like to fail and to let down. He's also, frankly, he's lived the nightmare that is O'Brien's. O'Brien is terrified of his work, leading to the death of his loved ones.

And poor Jennifer Sisko just happens to be on that ship when they had to go into battle against the Borg. 

Lily: Yep.

Cole: So no wonder, God, the imagination is a terrifying place. Almost as terrifying as the real world. 

Lily: Yeah, maybe more so 

Cole: Yeah. 

Lily: Downer! What a silly little episode. 

Cole: Yeah, I thought this would be a silly one. Oh my gosh. as far as the conclusions I drew from this, We learned that Kira manifested fireballs Dax manifested an entire black hole sucking the station up. So I think [01:18:00] the moral of the story is that women worry too much and should just relax and hook up with sex pests.

Lily: Have you tried smiling?

Cole: Stop worrying so much. That is actually a direct quote from The Secret. just stop worrying so much and be happy. And it's very they're literally telling you to just being happy about everything and just denying all of your emotions, 

Lily: , 

Yeah, I guess it just, it denies a lot of the human experience to 

Cole: Totally. 

Lily: and if I'm gonna think about say Kira and Sisko, who are deeply traumatized 

Cole: yes. 

Lily: By horrible events from their past. It's not like they can just, the drop of a hat, fantasize about something that makes them feel good and have that happen.

Cole: Figment them away. 

Lily: They're trying, they are goddamn trying to exist. Yeah, And, do good things and help other people, while having to process the horrors they've experienced. So yeah, I think to me that lives in the realm of, toxic positivity and, things that deny who we [01:19:00] are and what we're going 

Cole: Well said. At one point, they say that every disease or illness is, actually just a manifestation of stress. there's a quote where it says, um, , what is it? The person who speaks most of illness has it. The person who speaks most of prosperity has it. and it's like, yeah, maybe the person who's struggling with a horrible illness every day is talking about it, or maybe the person who's obsessed with being rich doesn't shut up about it and I don't want to hang out with them.

So yeah, that's toxic positivity. 

Lily: I just can't get around how self centric it is 

Cole: No, , a hundred percent. 

Lily: I can't get on board with the secret. And maybe that's why I'll never be a multi millionaire. 

Cole: A millionaire with a tennis court in their backyard. 

Lily: And 20 Emmys of my own. 

Cole: But, to perhaps end this episode, or deep analysis in this episode on a positive note. There's this beautiful quote from Einstein. Yeah. Imagination is everything. It is the preview of life's coming attractions. 

Lily: Okay, so [01:20:00] Einstein invented the secret.

Cole: That's why he helped usher the world into the nuclear age. 

Sorry, I look, imagination is a dangerous thing. All I'm saying is, uh, I'm sure there's something to be said about focusing on the direction your life wants to take 

Lily: another famous quote. I am become Emy. No, sorry, Jeff.

Apologies. I am become Death, the destroyer of worlds. 

Cole: I am become Emu. 

Lily: Have you ever met an emu? It's not far from the truth. 

Cole: They're 

Lily: terrifying.

are, they kept your eyes out. 

Cole: Emu, just like someone else's imagination, observe from a distance and don't get too close from a 

Lily: distance. you're right. I take back my fantasy.

Uh, Cole, what is your fantasy? 

Cole: I mean, besides Karma the Frog? 

Lily: Well, hang on. Let's decide which schema that we're part of. Okay. 

Cole: well, I think I sort of, I revealed [01:21:00] my, my true colors a little earlier. I think my fantasy is just like relevance and value.

want to feel useful to the people I care about. 

Lily: so your combo saviour, validation fantasy. 

Cole: Yeah, yeah. 

Lily: It's okay. the fantasies, they are what they are. 

Cole: But I think your 

Lily: motivations are good.

Cole: I think if those aliens were to visit me, my fear anxiety fantasies would probably crop up too. 

Lily: I mean, I think everyone's do. I think that's sort of why that's the culmination of the episode that it's, it's not just 

Cole: you're right. It was a nice story arc, to be honest.

 Because it went It went to the logical place. Yeah. what about you? 

Lily: It's hard. I've always struggled to pick just one schema because, um, I contain multitudes, 

Cole: all dip into all of these five from time to time, right? 

Lily: We do, but it's, which one, stands out to you as the most delicious. think I need you to tell me. I find it hard. 

Cole: [01:22:00] But see, Speaking off the record, maybe on the record, depends what comes out of my mouth. But, You've already confessed previously on this podcast to having a healthy dose of Ferengi in you.

And I think that's the part of you that embraces unabashedly your hedonistic side and knows that Yes. The gift of living in this experience is to enjoy life's pleasures and genuinely admire how you just lean into that with gusto And that's, that's the Quark in you.

I try to, try to live a little, uh, a little like Lily and Quark when I sip a delicious Riesling, on a Tuesday afternoon 

Lily: Yeah. Maybe that's why it's hard for me pick one because, uh, they sort of come to life. 

Cole: Cause you treat yourself.

Lily: Yeah. Uh, except for all my revenge plots The people who I have a grudge against. Just remember, a crow doesn't forget. 

Cole: A crow doesn't forget. 

Lily: let's just do a quick, fashion watch, contenders for you? 

Cole: I mean, I was glad to see sparkly [01:23:00] purple suited alien back, even though he was gunned down like four or five episodes ago.

Lily: Maybe that's part of his race. We don't know. 

Cole: True. True. True. I was kind of a fan of his, so I'm glad he, he made it out and he's walking around the promenade. 

Lily: he had gumption. He had 

Cole: gumption. Keiko's triangle Bob and Molly's adorable PJs. 

Lily: Yeah, she also shows up in another amazing outfit, It's colourful, you know, she's bringing pizzazz. It goes to Molly O'Brien.

Cole: Well done, Molly. And Keiko, 

Lily: because Keiko had the bob and probably organizes Molly's clothes. So Keiko, you did it. 

Cole: Give credit where credit is due. 

Lily: prop lunch? 

Cole: Okay, contenders, we've got the one and only. The Baseball, right? 

Lily: it's gotta be the baseball. 

Cole: It's a baseball and it is, my favorite prop of maybe the entire show.

So thank you, If Wishes Were Horses, for bringing that little delight into our world. Um, 

Lily: other, thoughts, any desires, any fantasies? 

Cole: any desires? Well, from here on [01:24:00] out, I'm going to be thinking a lot more about them because, I know the secret. and not to give in to pop psychology, but I, think I might try to focus more on what I want, rather than what I'm afraid of.

Lily: Um, I think that's, admirable. And also, you heard it here, folks, he's drinking the Cool Age. 

and my fantasy is that, um, we never talk about the secret ever again.

Cole: Yeah, that's because it's a 

Lily: secret.

Cole: All right. That's a good 

Lily: spot to end it. Yeah. Yeah. 

Cole: All right. From here on out, the secret stays here everyone, we wish that your wildest dreams come true and that your wildest fears do not.

Lily: and I, I wish you all as many gross Darbo girls as you desire.

I don't know. What are we, are we just saying things? 

Cole: Oh, and by the way, listen to the David Livingston interview because he's he's a deer. He's a dreamboat. Yeah. 

Lily: listen to Cole live out his actual wildest fantasies. 

Cole: [01:25:00] That, you know what, I have no more fantasies because hanging out with David Livingston for two hours was mine.

So, check.

Lily: Alright, thanks guys. 

Bye! 

 When 

Cole: you get to live in a world of pure imagination.

Lily: Exactly.