Cogs in the Wheel of PROGRESS (1.14)

What’s one stubborn farmer standing in the way of progress for an entire planet? Everything or nothing, depending on how you measure value. Nog and Jake spend the episode measuring it in wrappages of yamok sauce, bars of latinum, and gross of self-sealing stem bolts. Meanwhile, Major Kira is forced to reassess her values in a postcolonial Bajor where the black and white of wartime have blurred into an uneasy gray. For our discussion, we draw from A Short History of Progress by Robert Wright, Catch-22 by Joseph Heller, and the history of the Three Gorges Dam project in China. 

Chapters

• 0:00 Intro: What does progress look like?
• 14:49 Wine pairing
• 16:05 Episode recap
• 1:10:57 Final thoughts (and Fashion Watch!)

Transcript

Lily: [00:00:00] I do think if one of us is Nog and one of us is Jake, I am Nog.

Cole: I mean, I took that internet test, remember? I it legit told me that I am Jake Sisko, and I'm still discussing that with my therapist.

Lily: Yeah, as you should. 

 I'm Lily Rossen. 

Lily: and I'm Cole Paulson 

And welcome to Deep Space Wine, a podcast that attempts to recap and decode every episode of Deep Space Nine, the forgotten stepchild of the Star Trek universe. Each episode, we will share a bottle of wine, wind down, and then wind ourselves up again with our strong opinions about DS9.

Because in our social experience, there is nothing people love more than when someone talks at length about Star Trek or wine. 

Cole: Or self sealing stem bolts. Or 

Lily: yamok sauce. 

Cole: Ugh, I would talk for days about yamok sauce. 

Lily: I have questions. In fact, can we just [00:01:00] dive right in? Season 1, episode 14, progress.

Cole: let's do it. 

Lily: Alright, so are my like, talking points and also, episode name ideas. 

Cole: Hit me. 

Lily: All right, number one. Why waste 

Cole: time? 

Lily: Number one. Lily tries to determine the flavor profile of yummix sauce.

Cole: Are you gonna try incorporating it into some of your recipes? 

Lily: I feel like I want to discuss what I think it tastes like, but I don't want to jump the gun. 

Cole: yeah. 

Lily: okay. Number two. What would Morn and Dax's babies have looked like? 

Cole: And I think really weird 

Lily: like let's admit the babies would have been cute and weird looking.

Cole: Yeah. Like weirdly cute looking. 

Lily: Yeah. 

I'd grimace at it. 

Cole: Should I? You know that you can, there's those apps that let you morph two faces and you see, The beautiful, look everyone, we're gonna post to our Instagram page what Jadzia and Morin's babies would look like.

Lily: And then maybe also what me and Cole's babies would have looked like. 

Cole: Would've? What do you mean [00:02:00] would've? 

Lily: I don't know, I feel like that's pretty sealed like the, uh, self-sealing stem bolts, but 

we'll see. . All right, number three. and this is a bit more serious, box adage that the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few or the one 

Cole: Mm Yes, a hundred percent. I had that in my notes. Yeah. Cause that's really, that's the big, one of the big questions.

One of the big questions. Uh, this episode forces you to sit with. it does. 

I love this episode

Lily: Yeah. 

Cole: I, um. I remember the first time I saw it just loving how Star Trek was willing to tell such a small story. Yeah. one respect. but at the same time, it's huge and it's asking big questions and, do the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few , is just one of those questions.

Lily: Yeah. 

Lily: Okay, wait, a few more points. I'll shoot through these. We don't have to answer them. These are questions. Okay. four, Luddites. Am I one? And is it so bad? 

to, to be continued. Don't answer that. I will 

Cole: just say that every time you and I start recording. [00:03:00] One or both of us, fiddles over all the wirings and connections for about 10 minutes and then one of us swears. So, um, to answer your question very directly. No doubt. Yes and yes. 

Lily: Oh, come on.

You can see me in a beautiful hut in the middle of nowhere on some moon one day. 

Cole: Yeah. I say Embrace it. Thank 

Lily: you. those are the answers I was expecting. 

Cole: embrace it. 

Cole: You could see yourself, , looking good in a summer dress on a moon somewhere. 

Lily: no, I'm, like a weirdo in a hut on a moon, that ends tragically.

Cole: Can I join 

Lily: Yeah, you can. which of us will be mute? I don't know, from the trauma. I don't know why I went there. 

Cole: I think both of us enjoy talking too much to ever go mute. 

Lily: Oh yeah, no. If I'm ever mute, I will die. 

All right. Next question. Kira Nerys. Do we like her? 

Cole: Sisko says at one point in this episode that he likes her. I like my question. My [00:04:00] question is, is he telling the truth 

Lily: or is it manipulation? 

Cole: Yeah, I was genuinely, planning on asking you that. 

Lily: Okay. let's park that and, revisit during that scene. And then I suppose 

Cole: my counter question to we like Kira is, does Kira Nerys like herself?

Lily: No. Sorry. Sorry. Not supposed to answer these straight away. so I guess my final question is, uh, what is progress? 

Cole: have some things to say about that. 

Lily: Great. Hit me. take the wheel.

I'm 

Cole: Well, I, I had no idea going into this recording if you would have liked this episode or not, because it seems to be, a very polarizing episode online. some commentators I read call it The first great episode of season one and the moment DS9 starts to hit its stride and Others call it a complete betrayal of everything Star Trek stands for And I'm going to dare to ask Lily, what if [00:05:00] it's both?

Lily: And I dare to answer It is. But please go on and explain why. 

Cole: ethical gray areas confronting problems that don't have clean solutions. I think those become hallmarks of Deep Space Nine. Yes. If the ending to this episode left you feeling a little uncertain, a little yucky, a little , frustrated, well then this is the show for you.

Lily: Yeah, I love feeling those things. 

but , this idea that this is a betrayal of everything, star Trek stands for. I think the power of this episode is right there in the title and the irony of the title progress. 

Start Drake has always been all about progress, right? It's always had this blinding faith in the power of technology and science to improve the human condition. 

Cole: Um, 

think it was the very first episode we recorded where I told you that everything I need to know in life I learned in star Trek.

Lily: Mm, you did. 

And yeah. As a kid star Trek made me a believer in the inevitability of humans continued advancement. [00:06:00] Fueled by technology. And even more than that, the idea that that advancement is always going to be for the better and good in its own. 

Right. 

I was that little kid who got excited about tricorders and transporters and warp drive and how those things would make possible Eliminating disease and poverty and ending inequality. But. maybe connecting those dots from the, what to the, how hasn't always been spelled out in star Trek.

Lily: Searching for the, new frontier, but then what happens when you're on the final frontier? 

Cole: Yeah, and I don't think Star Trek has really paused to ask that looks like Um. 

So I think this episode is quietly registering a word of caution about that blind faith in progress. I think I think at the minimum, it's an indictment of star Trek's tendency to oversimplify things 

and it also questions that faith in scientific and social progress To make our way of life inevitably better. 

Lily: I kind of wish I had, included my intertextual link, [00:07:00] the short history of progress. Because that's the 

thesis, 

Oh, do. Tell. 

Lily: so

it's,

it's based on a series of lectures, 

the Massey lectures.

and look, I read this book 20 years ago, but it really resonated with me in I think about it a lot so the author, sort of looks at, I guess it's anecdotal, representations in history, of, the result of progress, sort of for the sake of progress advancement, for the sake of advancement.

And one of the, examples he uses is, Easter Island. so if you go there, there are totem poles everywhere and no life, basically what happened was the society, cut down all the trees, to build bigger and bigger totems. 

Cole: Um, 

Lily: and 

eventually there was nothing left on the island and they, they had to leave. 

Cole: Fascinating. 

Lily: it's a fascinating book. You should read it. 

Cole: well, that's really interesting because this episode is also about, resources, especially energy resources, 

Lily: hmm.

, and not renewable resources, might I add.

Cole: Um. So, fun fact about me, I [00:08:00] actually have a master's in development, 

Lily: Oh, that old thing?

Cole: yeah, development being another, wonderfully euphemistic term for progress. 

Lily: Mm.

Cole: we love to use euphemism in development we'll see that in this episode, in fact, um,

So there's two things I want us to think about as we discuss this episode. 

You've probably noticed we tend to not talk about third world countries anymore, but instead we talk about developing countries. 

Lily: Developing. Mm. 

Which first of all, carry this implicit assumption that things are getting better. and by better, we tend to more often than not mean closer to how we live in the west. 

Meanwhile. we call countries like the U S and Australia, developed countries in the past tense as if they've already made it. we've already got to where we're trying to get to and and a story. 

Lily: And if you've ever done a road trip through the U. S. and seen the abject poverty, you might question that. 

Cole: Exactly

Lily: That 

was, I found it very confronting. 

Cole: Yeah. 

So 

what the hell does development even mean? Broadly speaking, [00:09:00] we're talking. Efforts to improve the economy and standards of living in a society. that could take the form of new hydroelectric dams or new electric grids. Uh, plumbing, sewage access to healthcare, the rule of law. Progress. 

Also, almost always comes with new safety regulations. Codafide systems. Uniforms. Are developed world Has teaching curricula, passports, barcodes, shopping malls. So I think one big question. This episode keeps asking. Is what is lost in the name of progress? As much as we gain. Are there things that are also lost.

Lily: mm, 

The second thing I want us to think about is a little more fundamental to. Our concept of progress and the progression of time 

Cole: So, um, Lily, when you think of time and the progress of time and you visualize it, what does it look like to you? 

Lily: Uh, I feel like this is a trick question, but it's [00:10:00] linear. 

Cole: Like a timeline, right? 

Lily: Yes. 

Was that right? Did I fall into your trap?

Cole: Who says there's a right and a wrong answer? I haven't said anything for 

Lily: anything. 

Cole: don't you trust me? 

Lily: Not at all. 

Cole: In the West, we think of time as linear. Exactly. Going steadily forward along a timeline, but a lot of other cultures, conceive of time as cyclical, which actually makes a lot of sense when you think that day and night in a cycle, the seasons come in cycles, there is birth and death and rebirth. I mean, it's even interesting. You talked about resources and, using up a society's resources, but if you think of resources being linear, like there is a finite amount and we burn through them all and now that's done. versus thinking about resources as cyclical and how we can continually renew them.

Um, so there's something interesting there about how we even think of, the progression of time as if we're like burning through it we're 

continuing to repeat and [00:11:00] renew something. Sure. Like 

Lily: if you're a nomadic culture,

to repeat and renew something. 

Lily: Sure. Like if you're a nomadic culture, you learn to take parts from the land and move elsewhere and then come back at a certain time.

Cole: Yeah, exactly. 

Lily: Yeah, 

Cole: And I think keeping that in mind, might be important for this episode and the character drama that's happening on the small scale. Because I think both like, you asked, did I say the right answer? I think both concepts of time are valid, and useful when you're thinking about, a people or a society.

Like when we think about human history, writ large, from hunter gatherers up to the modern world, and then leading into the future that Star Trek imagines. That linear progress 

makes 

sense, but if we think of the story of just one human life progressing through the cycle birth to death, then that big timeline of human history actually doesn't matter so much and doesn't feel so relevant.

It's more about the progress of that human life. And I think that's a really interesting thing to think [00:12:00] about when we discuss Kira and Molabok in this episode. 

Lily: So you're, you're pretty overqualified for this episode. I'm going to put that out there. 

Cole: I do have a master's in progress. I mean, spoiler alert. It was a two years master's and we basically learned about all the ways that humans thought we had figured out how to. develop and how each of those ways failed in massive ways. Yeah. 

Lily: Each time we reached the pinnacle of enlightenment and then whoops, no, we didn't.

Cole: Yeah. Or it turns out we didn't realize how we were also destroying something in the process. Right. So, oops. 

Lily: burning it to the ground, so to speak. 

Uh, really quickly. 

I wanted to say some quick things about the B plot. 

Cole: Yes! 

With Jake and dog. Because at first glance, this story feels really out of place alongside the Kira. And Muehlebach one

Lily: Yeah. in the A story, you get a devastating tale of, I guess property rights at the heart of it. and then the B story, you get a really fun story about property [00:13:00] rights. So. Right. everybody wins.

Cole: that hit me at the very end. I was like, wait a second, are these both about property rights?

Like no one saw that convergence coming, did they? 

Lily: We didn't look when you talk yamok sauce, do you think you're going to get to property rights? No, but here we are everyone. here we are, but once again, we haven't explained the episode yet. So here we are not. 

Cole: Otherwise it seems like this is just a really light, fun way to fill up the time and add a little levity, but is there something more going on there between these two stories? 

Lily: I think there is, but that's not to say that levity is not important in this episode because gosh darn it, it needs it.

Cole: We needed Jake and Nog to be running around trading nonsense things for more nonsense things. Ira Stephen Behr does cite little inspiration for this. This storyline was inspired by the character Milo Minderbinder from Catch 22. 

Lily: Yes. Have you read 

Cole: it? 

Lily: I have, yeah. 

perhaps

Myla minder binder is called perhaps the best known of all fictional businessmen And A bittersweet parody. of the American dream. [00:14:00] By historian Stewart Brandis. 

Cole: which I think is very interesting. also, are you aware of some of the real life examples of this, seeing how far you can uptrade?

Lily: I was talk about the who swapped the paperclip for the house by the end, 

yeah. And.

Cole: there's a YouTube star, Ryan Trahan, who started with a penny and, in just a week he traded it up to a whole house. 

Lily: Yeah. 

Cole: I think he got like a motorbike to a car to land, just empty land, to then a house in a city. Yeah, exactly. Dirt. so yeah, my question is just, what is this storyline doing in this episode? 

Lily: perhaps we will find out? that it's, it's more connected than one might think. 

Cole: Let's find out. 

Lily: All right. And let's find out about this wine. Shall we? 

Cole: Let's. 

Lily: Woo. so tonight we are drinking a 2022 Pinot Noir, from a producer in Porongarup.

 and the producer is called Shepard's Hut. 

Cole: Perfect. Great. Thank you. 

Lily: Thanks for the [00:15:00] gasp. 

Cole: A plus. 

Lily: so Shepherds Hut, do single vineyard wines and they do them in very, very small batches. Porongarup is a small village in the great Southern NWA, which is clearly one of my favorite wine regions, 

notes from the producer. It's an enticing nose of red cherries and spice.

The palette is jubilant red fruit, strawberries and cherries. A hint of blackcurrant and a subtle smokiness adds depth and complexity, 

Cole: I have often thought that red berries were jubilant and I thought it was just me. 

Lily: but you know, also depth and complexity. 

Cole: A, um, deceivingly, lightweight, but in fact deep and complex wine. 

Lily: and length. uh, should we, should we drink it? No? Yeah, 

Cole: let's do it. 

Lily: let me crack it to screw tough. 

Cole: Cheers. 

Lily: Cheers.

Cole: need some jubilant wine to work our way through this one

Lily: Should we do it?

Cole: Let's [00:16:00] do it. Let us progress to the recap. 

Lily: Here we go. episode 14, progress. open on a card game in Quarks. What is this, next generation? No, it's not. but low in a lime green two toned onesie is Jake and his best friend Nog passing the time for a game of cards. 

Cole: I think it's freaking adorable that Jake and Naga play cards. It's somehow the perfect compromise game for a human and a Ferengi. 

Lily: Yeah, They overhear Quark complaining to a worker who has clearly made an ordering error.

The mistake is 5, 000 wrappages of Cardassian yamok sauce. And I have so many questions. What kind of unit of measurement is a wrappage? And also Quark describes yamok sauce as swill. This is from a guy who drinks millipede juice, so what does yamak sauce taste like? 

Cole: I love how many random units of measurement and quantity are in this episode. I know. Wrappages is one of my favorite. 

Lily: Yeah, I like wrappages because it, I'm now just thinking [00:17:00] each little thing of yummix sauce is wrapped up in something really cute.

Cole: I just picture those, ketchup packs that you get, you know, to put on a hot dog. 

Lily: Yeah, okay. you're so right. It's just in a shitty plastic little packet. 

Cole: do you want yamak sauce? 

Like, do you want to try it? Here's my 

Lily: theory. Here's my theory about what it tastes like. I have this theory that Yarmouk sauce is really alkaline. 

Hear me out. 

Cole: okay. I'm 

Lily: it. Cardassians are kind of lizard people, so they're like, , they're eating things and drinking things that are quite different from other humanoid species, and for my palate. You know, everyone knows acid is great. Everyone knows all these things balance out, but alkaline, like in its pure form is absolutely disgusting.

And I only know this from, um, having had these like pure alkaline concoctions for, a colonoscopy. So, 

Cole: wait, 

Lily: And it's swill. 

Cole: I want it to be some sort of, sauerkraut, like vinegary fish sauce, 

Lily: [00:18:00] maybe? No, I feel like that's not alien enough. 

Cole: Yeah. 

Lily: So that's what, that's what the Ferengi would be eating. See, I feel like they're having something really weird and that's why no other cultures want it.

Anyway, let's move on. so Quark threatens to gouge the workers paycheck as, recompense, but Nog is eavesdropping and clearly having a brainwave. That's a lot of yamok sauce, he says, which is now one of my new catchphrases. And it does, it does get brought up again in the episode. That's a lot of yamok sauce.

Jake is miffed. Jake is miffed that Nog isn't playing the card game, 

Cole: Jake just wants to win that game of go fish. 

Lily: Oh, he does. He's so simple. 

Cole: they're playing Go Fish, let's be honest, And Jake loves it. 

Lily: No, I don't have that card.

Let's keep playing. All right. but Nog, Nog informs Jake that he is getting that tingling in his lobes. And when a lobe tingles, it means only one thing. Opportunity. Uh, and he begins the B story and a tale of two young men traversing the free market. 

Cole: yeah, it's [00:19:00] all about that invisible hand and, how you play it.

It's a weirdly, like, Star Trek exists in a post capitalist human society. So, it's kind of strange for Deep Space Nine to just have so much fun in capitalist playground, right? 

Lily: think that's part of what we love about it.

stop pretending there's a utopia. The rest of The universe is still working with currency, 

including the Ferengi, who are a huge part of Deep Space Nine. 

Cole: Deep Space Nine is throwing a bucket of cold water on the Federation's face and being like, come on guys, just be serious. 

Lily: Yeah. Grow up, they say.

and we all do. 

Cole: by the way, slashing your employee's salary in half for the next six years is an extreme punishment. 

Lily: Classic. 

Cole: My only note. Classic move. 

Lily: Meanwhile in the Ace story, Sisko is facilitating Bajor's first large scale energy transfer, tapping the molten core of its fifth moon 

Cole: How's that for a euphemism?

I said development is all about euphemisms. A large scale energy transfer, aka destroying an entire moon.

Lily: Yeah, , tapping the [00:20:00] molten core of its fifth moon Gerardo. Is that how you pronounce it? Gerardo, 

Cole: It's Gerardo I think. 

Lily: Gerardo, not 

Cole: Gerardo sounds like 

that Brazilian guy you made out with when you were drunk.

Gerardo. Not you, just, you know, one. The Brazilian guy one makes out with. 

Lily: Sure. This is not a story pulled straight from the headlines of my life, personally. Not to say that I haven't made out with Brazilian men. may have happened. I'm not 

Cole: assuming one way or the other. 

Lily: No. 

sweet, sweet Gerardo. Dax and O'Brien, uh, they're acting as science props.

They get a few lines,  

Cole: they're sciencing. Yep. 

Lily: Sciencing about, Minister Turan, who is a official, is also overseeing this transfer, this transfer in inverted commas, and seems nervous, forgive my bureaucratic nitpicking, Major. 

says, and then condescendingly explains that the energy will be heating a few hundred thousand homes in Bajor this winter, Kira, oh my god, and then Kira excuses herself from this awkward [00:21:00] interaction, because she probably just wants to run away from this guy because he is the pits.

Cole: Because he's a bureaucratic nitpicker, something unfortunately, I have I mean, development just a lot of bureaucratic nitpicking. I can say that I've having worked for a year at the United Nations. 

Lily: right. 

Cole: Turns out When there's an alliance of all sorts of different people, like the UN or the Federation, it's insanely difficult to actually make things happen.

Lily: so 

Cole: just a little, throwing cold water on the Federation again. 

Lily: Yep. and there's cold dunking on the UN. I mean, I think, I think we all know that. I mean, everybody knows that, right? 

Cole: exactly. It's not shock. And, I'm not, I'm glad the UN exists. But, life is a lot harder than Star Trek.

It makes it look sometimes. okay, as far as this energy transfer project by tapping the core of the moon, let's just get it out of the way now. the science and the rationale for the setup of this plot does not hold water. it's kind of nonsense. Especially if they say that destroying an entire moon will heat A few hundred thousand [00:22:00] homes.

I think the scale of that is completely off. basically destroying an entire ecosystem for, like if they had said it'll power an entire continent, maybe, but we're talking like destroy a moon and it'll power a neighborhood in New York City. So let's just acknowledge that the scale is sort of off in this episode and that clearly this tapping the core of a moon and displacing people is sort of an allegory for large scale development projects like hydroelectric dams, the Three Gorges Dam in China is the one that comes to mind the most, the 

And. I did a little research. The dam was actually approved back in 1992. A year before this episode. So it was in the headlines when this episode is being written. Uh, today it's the world's largest power station in terms of power generated. And it has been very controversial because upwards of maybe 4 million people were displaced, declare out what was going to be flooded when this dam became active. 

Apparently. 13 entire cities and 140 towns were completely submerged underwater for this damn. 

Lily: Horrible. Yeah. 

Cole: It had a huge toll on [00:23:00] biodiversity. The Chinese government itself has even acknowledged the dam was probably responsible for the extinction of the Chinese River Dolphin. Like, oops, we haven't seen this dolphin in 40 years. but on the flip side, the dam has reduced the potential for flooding, which in one year alone back in 1930 caused the deaths of four million people.

So it's about that balancing lives of people now or later, potential impacts. they see it as a success. The Chinese to this day are very proud of the Three Gorges Dam, despite even acknowledging, the mass displacements and extinctions. It's these huge, thorny questions that this episode, Progress, is, an allegory for.

Lily: I am mainly Yeah, I can't stop thinking about the river dolphin. 

Cole: Those river dolphins, they're not officially extinct. They just have not been seen in 40 years. And, it's almost certain that blocking the flow of this river, made it impossible for them [00:24:00] to, one of the few freshwater river dolphins and they just didn't have a habitat anymore.

But, developed China now provides energy for, all of its. One billion citizens. 

Lily: Thanks, Cole. 

Cole: I'm just here to provide some, uh, some facts. some context. Carry on. 

Lily: It's just some real, here's a fun fact. 

Cole: Hey kids, do you like dolphins? 

Lily: Too bad. moving on. 

Cole: Jadzia's love life. Let's move on to Jadzia's love life. Yeah. 

Lily: Yeah. Something a little bit more fun. we're on the runabout And Dax is dishing the dirt that Morn has asked her out to dinner.

which Kira can't believe, cause she's a superficial piece of shit. No, uh, because, um,

 Circling back to an earlier 

Cole: question, do we like Kira? 

Lily: Apparently Morn is the life of the party. We never get to see it, but everyone talks about it. Dax, He's got a great sense of 

Cole: humor, 

Lily: [00:25:00] great sense of humor

you know, a drinking problem, but who doesn't have one of those?

Cole: Cheers to that! 

 so Dax says, 

Lily: well, 

Cole: she said no, but, apparently she was into the seven or eight little wiry hairs that come out of Morn's forehead because they make him look kind of cute. And here 

Lily: we

And here we're introduced to Dax's, yeah, 

Cole: yeah, 

this is Dax's 

taste in sexual partners. She does not have a set physical type.

it's really about the vibe with her.

do you reckon though, Is Jed Zia just trolling Kira here? No, she loves messing with people. 

Lily: She does, but she's into freaky dudes 

Cole: and also like, you're gonna get bored of the norm after seven lifetimes. 

Lily: Yeah, try some weird shit, right? Exactly, some lame humanoid form. No, have someone where you can see inside his skull. Or, I don't know. Exactly. A Ferengi, or whatever, whatever you're into. 

Cole: I think those seven or eight wiry hairs do make Morn look kind of cute.

So, I get you Jads. 

Lily: Oh, right. Dax has [00:26:00] found some humanoid readings in an area that's supposed to be completely evacuated, a moon. Kira beams down to investigate, into what turns out to be an idyllic vegetable garden slash homestead, where she is quickly surrounded by two disgruntled homesteaders holding a literal pitchfork and also a gardening hoe.

Prep watch. 

Cole: I wrote Bajoran Gothic. 

Lily: was right there. It was right there and I'm so mad at myself.

Well done. 

Cole: can't you just be grateful that one of us saw it? I mean, , this is a team effort, look, 

Lily: Jealousy is the sincerest form of flattery, right? 

Cole: It's not my only, , art allusion, in this episode, I'll have you know. 

Lily: Oh, 

Cole: I think it's really important how idyllic this moon surfaces.

It's sort of like what we hear Bajor was like before the Cardassian occupation. In harmony with nature, Edenic, and that's obviously important. 

Lily: Yeah. A little slice of utopia. Um, so that's the teaser. 

Cole: Make a good progress. [00:27:00] Whatever. I'm loving it. I will edit out the nonsense. 

Lily: down on the homestead, a gravelly voiced older man tells Kira from the doorway, the problem is they don't like uniforms. 

the first of many sassy comments. Kira states that, well, neither does she, but it comes with the territory of her job. 

Cole: And I think this line, I don't like uniforms either, but it comes with a job, I think it could be the thesis for the episode. I think it's really important. 

Lily: Agreed, yeah. Agreed. Oh. old sassy man, calls off the angry homesteaders, and tells Kira, she is halfway pretty. yeah, right. And that, he doesn't like uniforms. either, on account of the Cardassian occupation. Kira explains that, he and the other two were supposed to have evacuated, and then she gets called girl a few times before saying she doesn't care to be called girl, but still is persuaded into staying for supper, 

Cole: yeah. gender is, one of the many themes under hood of this episode, and I wanted to ask you, like, how often does Star Trek so overtly address sexism? Because [00:28:00] obviously Star Trek has a proud history of, gender equality, putting women on the bridge, putting women in leadership positions.

But how often does it discuss? how sexism acts and how it's pernicious and just treat it as subject, the way it does in this episode 

Lily: I think, it's a common thread with the character of Kira because obviously this stuff is set in the future but still a product of the late 90s, early 2000s.

 Where feminism in arguably the mainstream, if that's what we're going to call Star Trek, where that was is where this sits, which is a brand of feminism, where maybe women are still having to prove that they can emulate men. 

Cole: Yeah, and that is sort of one role of the Kira character.

 I mean, how often do Maine women characters on Star Trek experience gender discrimination the way Kira does? how often were Troy or Crusher or ura actually the victim of, sexism? 

Lily: Yeah, I guess, there How do I phrase this? The way [00:29:00] they perform femininity is very different to the way Kira performs femininity. so they're very feminine women that you're describing. Kira, sits in a slightly more masculine and she does kind of emulate men a bit more than they do. She has short hair.

She has a temper. She speaks her mind. She's in the military. in the military. Yeah. 

Cole: think the tension here is a woman in a position of authority in the military. Right. 

Lily: But I think, again, it's the way that she is and the way that she chooses to be.

and I think these were and still are very confronting things for heterosexual men. even just short hair on a woman is still confronting to a lot of heterosexual men. So how far have we really come? 

 so do you think this episode deserve credit for acknowledging that women who stray outside the lines of gender norms have to put up with a lot of shit from men? or do you think this is sort of too obvious , I mean, look me, I was impressed that the way this whole episode is telling Star Trek to maybe like wake up a bit.

Cole: It's saying, [00:30:00] yeah, women are still going to face sexism in the future from, people with outdated mindsets. 

Lily: Well, I think it's interesting because I think this character is, which we'll find out is performing sexism.

Arguably. 

Cole: Totally. 

Lily: Totally. Um, whereas saying that the first episode when Miles O'Brien describes Kira and Bejo and women as fiery feisty, yes. That's what he actually thinks about women. So, yes, I don't know. It's an interesting question. I do have more to say about it as this episode progresses.

Cole: Okay. 

Lily: also this is another thread to pick up later. This actor kind of looks like Anthony Hopkins. 

Cole: He totally does. his name, Brian Keith and I think he does a great job, 

Lily: Oh, he's great.

Yeah. 

Cole: Love him. 

Lily: all right. It's good makeup, you gotta admit. 

Cole: I thought it was like, Babylon 5, Star Wars, they're doing great alien makeup here. 

Lily: Things are happening season one, as we've been saying. This guy is the captain of a Lissapian cargo ship, he has many trade deals with [00:31:00] the Cardassians, Nog lays out the deal with this guy, and that is original, not replicated yamak sauce, and it's for sale, and it's top quality merchandise. Nog offers to sell it for five bars of gold press latinum. That's a lot of latinum, says the guy, to which Nog replies, that's a lot of yamak sauce. Lily's favorite catchphrase. That's a lot of yamak sauce. 

Cole: When can we use that in, real world context? is that sort of like, we're going to need a bigger boat? Like, oof. 

Lily: Yeah, exactly. A lot of 

Cole: yamak sauce. 

Lily: Yeah, I think so. 

Cole: I'm also picturing like, what if someone is, coming on too strong?

Like if someone on Tinder to me is like, laying it on too thick. Could I be like, that's a lot of yamak sauce. 

Lily: Yeah, you could definitely screenshot the Tinder, send it to me and then comment, that's a lot of yummix sauce, I think would be the appropriate context.

Cole: Great. I look forward to that. 

Lily: So Manta Ray, he counter offers with a trade. he will trade the yamok sauce [00:32:00] for, a hundred gross of self sealing stem bolts. More questions. So to be answered or not answered later, Nog is way skeptical and he just wants some cold hard cash.

But Jake suggests they trade the stem bolts for something else, truly exemplifying how the market worked before currency. And in a way it's kind of full circle for the progeny of a human in Starfleet, which is. Is. Is. Trade, which moves to currency, which moves to a currency free world, to hey, we're on deep space 9, so it's back to trade. 

It's almost 

Cole: like time is moving in a cycle. 

Lily: Could be exactly what Cole was describing, and no, we did not discuss it beforehand. We did not. 

Cole: Um, Quick shout out to Peter Allen Field, the writer of this episode, because the man behind Yamaxas and Sealing Stembolts. Self 

Lily: Sealing Stembolts.

yeah, 

Cole: God bless him, because both of those things stay with us over course of Deep Space Nine, as they should. They 

Lily: really do, and if he can shed any light on some of our questions. You know what, 

Cole: I believe I've read somewhere that he absolutely [00:33:00] cannot. He has no idea what these things I think that's as it should be. That's as it should be. It is. 

I think it's really interesting that Nog is the one who's really, rigid about giving up on Latinum and Jake's the one who sees opportunity where Nog does not. It's true. 

He's a little more patient and a little more, um, more flexible. 

Lily: he's a little more optimistic too.

Yeah. 

Cole: That's cause he grew up in the Federation where like, you don't actually have to haggle for anything and he's just having fun. This isn't like his likelihood on how good a person he is. This is just a fun little hobby for Jake. Yeah, 

Lily: whereas this is Nog's, reputation? Future?

Chance to redeem himself? 

Cole: We find out about his motives a little later. There's a big hint about his motives. We 

Lily: we do. Alright. More on that later. Anyway, Nog and Jake decide to make the deal and they shake hands with old Manta Rayface, and also Best Friends Club is so cute and I love them. 

Cole: goodness for these two. 

Lily: yeah, Nog describes Jake as his business partner. well, I have a business and sometimes when I'm discussing my business partner, I too feel like a young [00:34:00] Nog cutting Yamicsauce deals.

Cole: Sometimes when I tell people about my award winning 

Lily: Soon to be award winning. 

Cole: it's a developing podcast. I, I see you in Nog's cool hipster fashions, and it just 

Lily: I do think if one of us is Nog and one of us is Jake, I am Nog.

Cole: I mean, I took that test, remember? I took that internet test and it legit told me that I am Jake Sisko. And I'm still discussing that with my therapist. 

Lily: Yeah, as you should. 

Cole: Um, 

Lily: back at the suspiciously LDS looking homestead, there is a great collection of homemade pottery and ceramics. as well as like a heap of veggies laid out on the kitchen table, like it's a Nancy Meyers film. 

Cole: I was thinking, a Dutch still life painting, like a Vermeer. That 

Lily: too, cabbages and things. Off brand Anthony Hopkins is putting Kira to work in the kitchen, where she belongs, um, [00:35:00] obviously. Dax calms through and Kira informs her that she'll be staying for supper, which is apparently some kind of route that needs to be boiled for three hours, sounds delicious.

and apparently the angry homesteaders were tortured by Cardassians also. 

Cole: not to diminish the horror of, Kena being rendered mute by the Cardassians, but it is also remarkably convenient from a budget perspective because if characters don't talk, Then you don't have to sponsor their SAG membership.

So, everyone wins here. 

Lily: Wow. Just a side helping of exploitation. Great. 

Cole: Oh my gosh. Oh no. 

It's exploiting on exploiting. 

Lily: Wait, no, we,

We love the makers of Deep Space Nine. Anyway, 

Cole: No, no, I'm keeping that. That's hilarious. 

Lily: anyway, all of this pathos is negated by sassy old man calling Kira a good girl. I don't know about Kira, but one of my favorite things for a man to say to me. anyway, this guy, keeps commenting on Kira's appearance, along with some negging for good measure.

You look real good [00:36:00] from this angle, but you walk like a carnivorous rastapod straight from the game. 

Cole: Mollabark has read the game. 

Lily: Sure has. and Kira takes the bait. Ooh, and she's getting angry, but apparently it's all been in good fun to get a rise out of her and make her angry. Such larks. and it's the 90s, so Kira finds the mind games quite funny.

Marker

Lily: Yuck, yuck. 

Cole: well let's talk about this because, the writer Peter Allenfield was dissatisfied with the final outcome of this episode because he had written Mullabok to be more of a jerk than he thought he came across in this episode.

He had actually not wanted this guy to be likable at all and hadn't even wanted him seem like he was warming up to Kira at all. And he thought way the acting and directing played out gave Mullabok too much credit. I kind of still think Mullabok's a piece of work, but what did you think?

Lily: I think he's a piece of work, but he's got a twinkle in his eye. He's knowing, he's wry, There's a lot to like about him as much as he's manipulative and, all kinds of other things. 

Cole: He's manipulative, but he's a fighter.

and He's a man of conviction, which obviously Kira [00:37:00] has to admire. think Kira warms up to this guy a little too fast, but learn more about Kira and past over the course of the whole series, and there are reasons you could understand why she warms up to this man, that I'll get into later, 

Lily: yeah, he says this stuff and then kind of waits for her to notice that he's making a joke, right? He's not deadpanning it. 

Cole: It's almost like he's testing empathy and her emotional intelligence like, how much can I actually, 

Lily: I think arguably he has some vulnerable moments too. 

Cole: And I think he's also capable of love and affection and he definitely has affection for Kira. 

Lily: I mean, he's all of us. 

Cole: at least maybe in 40 years when you're wearing that sundress on that moon with me. 

Moondress? 

Lily: Moondress. 

Cole: It 

Lily: But yeah, like you say, now they're friends apparently. 

Cole: Hmm. 

Lily: Anthony Hopkins wasn't kidding about the roots taking three hours to cook, which is pretty rough. they are best Kira tries to explain the [00:38:00] fact that the energy from this moon will benefit hundreds of thousands of Bajorans, in a roundabout way, explaining Spock's philosophy that the need of the many outweighs the of the few.

Yes. 

Cole: Soon. 

Lily: Kira tries to convince him that Bajor is changing for the better to no avail. Malabok will die in his home rather than leave it. 

Cole: Yeah, I think the writing in this is really sharp.

says, ah, your precious Bajor 

Lily: Yeah. 

Cole: he does not identify with Bajor anymore at all. He's escaped trauma and has built a life for himself. Whereas Kira very much aligns herself with the Bajoran state. I mean, she works for the Bajoran military.

And she's working on the development of entire Bajoran planet.

Whereas Molabok has very squarely, decided only care for his own interests and those his neighbors and friends, and to be a person of self reliance. And I I don't think this episode tells you which mindset is the right one. 

Lily: And this is also a theme in the first Kira, episode, past prologue. 

Cole: Yes. No, exactly. They're really putting poor Kira through her paces in these Kira centric episodes because she [00:39:00] has to decide where her allegiances lie. her whole life, it was just defeat the Cardassians. And now who do you ally yourself with? how do you identify and 

who's part of your community and who isn't, these really big, uneasy questions.

Once the black and white of war is over. 

Lily: and Kira have a pretty interesting conversation about it later in 

Cole: the episode. 

Lily: Quarks, A Starfleet Bolian has won dabo at Underboo dabo Lady's table and is walking straight out again without the winnings, how does this game work?

I don't know, do you just have like a tab? That's always running. You win Darbo and you're like, ha ha, I'm walking away. 

Cole: Well, what you don't know about Dabba is that if you don't flee the bar within five seconds of winning, you don't get to keep your winnings. 

Lily: Nog approaches Quark, who immediately tells him off for some very un Ferengi like behavior, getting a Darbo player a free drink after the Darbo player their drink. and apparently these are also Rom's habits, that Nog has been [00:40:00] picking up. Poor, poor old Rom. Too generous by half, 

Cole: Yeah, so this is a scene where we get Nog's motivation for why he's so desperate to make the sale because Quark's suggesting he's turning into his father and of course Nog is terrified of that too and he's trying to prove that he's a, real Ferengi with the lobes for profit. 

Lily: Yeah, they're tingling, they're tingling all right.

Cole: lobes are tingling, he's doing great. 

Lily: in a classic Ferengi move, Nog manipulates Quark into giving him the yammock sauce to dispose of.

 Nog! 

but anyway, 

It's night, and it's back at the Hobbit homestead, the facade of which, bewilderingly, has blue neon squiggles on it. 

Cole: I missed the neon squiggles. 

Lily: but yes, inside the homestead, Malabok is regaling the table with tales of his youthful exploits, commandeering a Cardassian ship and settling on this moon. his homesteader friends remind you are too traumatized to speak and thus have had to listen to this guy for 18 years.

roll their eyes and it's quite funny. 

Cole: No wonder he's, so verbose He's talking for like three people. I know. 

Lily: And they're just like [00:41:00] Stank eyeing each other. It's, pretty good. they can't talk, but their eyes say volumes. 

Cole: Their eyes speak volumes. And I think those eyes deserve DAG membership.

You heard it here and I hope they eventually got it. They 

Lily: do. Well, we could look into that. 

Cole: there's something really interesting that this episode is saying about storytelling. we talked a lot last episode, obviously, about storytelling, but I think this episode might even have more to say about it.

I mean, Molabok is telling these tall tales, he's, yeah, pretending they're his life story, but they're obviously, Exaggerated. yeah. And so what is he doing 

Lily: it's interesting I was thinking is this a bit of a, in my day we walked 20 miles uphill in the snow with no shoes, et cetera, et cetera. And I think in a way it is, it's sort of that style of, it makes me think of, the Irish style of storytelling, Celtic, um, with exaggeration and, all those kinds of things.

Or is he picking things he thinks Will appeal to Kira? Or is he merely retelling the story the way he wants to retell it? You know, [00:42:00] fighting off six Cardassians and all that, when potentially that's not exactly what happened and he was abused and all sorts of things. 

Cole: I was sort of thinking he's, telling his own origin story, and we talked last episode about how you are allowed to tell your own story and shape your own narrative.

He's decided to tell this larger than life origin story for maybe various reasons. you know, he talked about how he tamed this place and it's, not only his origin story, but it's the origin of how he came to this place and his relationship with the land. 

Lily: Which obviously, 

Cole: I his connection to this is so deep.

Uh, it almost this like quality that the facts wouldn't be able to convey, 

Lily: Mm. it's still a very, uh, Eurocentric view of, being at one with the land, though. It's still about taming it. it's not about, being one with it. It's, um,

Cole: conquering it, 

Lily: you know, grinding the, what is it between his teeth to add to the soil and 

Cole: yeah.

Grinding the 

Lily: dirty things. And yeah. The sort of grittiness of it to. tame it to what he wants it to [00:43:00] be. it's still not the cyclical

Cole: Yeah. Well first he, First, he beat the Cardassians, then he beat the land, and he's, earned this.

He's earned being like the owner of this farmland. 

Lily: He's tamed it. He's planted his flag and he's, he's the authority there or not anymore. Some more mind games continue as Malabok likens the Bajoran resistance in an uphill battle against Cardassians to his plight of staying in his home.

Um, and well, he sort of gets her to admit that the way they won was to hang in like a fanatic. and she sort of realizes that's what he's doing as well. but on a side note, the silver goblets are really pretty and fun and sort of medieval prop watch. 

Cole: It's gorgeous. I think the whole set for the house and all the props, , makes me want to hang out with Mullabok, , think as far as power of story, he's also telling the story to trick Kira into understanding where he's coming from.

He sets this whole trap through the story for Kira to actually identify with him, which is another really effective use of story. 

 

Lily: And manipulative. Yes. 

Cole: But storytelling 

Lily: be. [00:44:00] I 

Cole: mean here you and I are talking about this story that DeepSource9 told to us and what we get out of it. I mean , that's the power of a story to make us see things in a different way, right? 

Lily: It's full circle, baby. 

Cole: Ha ha ha! Cyclical nature. 

Lily: back in a Cargo Bay on DS9, best friends conglomerate are admiring their Stambolts. we know it's the next day because Jake's onesie is now my favorite blue and purple combo of onesie. 

Cole: You've settled on a favorite. 

Lily: I have.

Yeah. , there was an Instagram story we did. and that was my favorite. 

Cole: it's a great choice. of Jake's three onesies. 

Lily: Nong tries out his best slimy salesman pitch. you can't get a better stem bolt in this sector. 

then O'Brien arrives. to ruin the fun with some import export red tape, 

Cole: Darned development bureaucracy. 

Lily: BFC, which is what I'm calling Best Friends Club, try to finagle O'Brien into telling them what the heck, self sealing stem bolts are. But turns out O'Brien doesn't know, because he's never used them before. What, what? I didn't see it coming. but it does seem like a lot of people are [00:45:00] pretending they know what a stem bolt is in this episode. 

Including the writers. Yeah, 

Cole: isn't it beautiful? Isn't, uh, living in a developed world just pretending you know what's going on half the time? 

Lily: Oh man, yeah, 

. But by process of deduction, Jake and Nog work out. they can find the original person who ordered the Stembolts but couldn't pay for them. And then this person can tell them what Stembolts are. And his name is Serko Cano, another great Bajoran name.

Cole: Great name.

Lily: so then we're in ops Kira is facing Sisko and Minister Turan, about this situation on this moon.

they debate the possibilities of dealing with the conflicts. To take the holdouts by force, postpone this operation, offer. The people holding out something that they want, Kira knows that none of this will actually work. Torrin argues in favor of the greater good, and Kira accuses him of behaving like a Cardassian.

Gasp! Oof, 

Cole: you did not go there, Kira. That is a line you do not cross. I mean, isn't that tantamount to, like, calling a Jewish person a Nazi, quite frankly? 

Lily: Totally. [00:46:00] So Kira throws this accusation, and then Tyran accuses her of having feelings and emotions. How dare she!

Ugh, like a woman. That's fine. He'll just find someone else for the job. and what he's really saying is, I'll find a man for the job. 

Cole: Yeah. 

Lily: Right. 

Cole: because men don't 

Lily: have feelings 

Cole: and emotions, mean, at least I don't. Lord knows Um, , and let's, can we just ignore the minor plot point that,, there was an alternative way to tap the moon?

That would have, been less destructive if they'd waited one year, because quite frankly, you wait one year to not destroy an entire ecosystem. So let's just cross out that line of dialogue because it, cancels out the entire debate, which I think is a debate worth having. So moving on.

Lily: Yes, I did leave it out of 

Cole: there. Yeah, you did, didn't you? 

Lily: so, then in a truly ill advised move, Kira arrives back on the moon with security, homesteaders by force, which was one of the things she said was terrible and wouldn't work.

Cole: More uniforms, guns, protocol. Make sure they 

Lily: have [00:47:00] uniforms. um, I think 

Marker

Lily: I wrote in this scene, side note, I really appreciate the design of the cottage and all the matching furniture that's been made to suit the cottage. 

Cole: Oh, it's immaculate. 

Lily: yeah, this, whole episode is set and prop watch galore.

Cole: there's a window cut in the shape of the Bajoran insignia. And the door that folds upwards like a DeLorean. 

Lily: It's like a DeLorean. Yes. Oh my God. Amazing. 

Cole: designer, well done, if you're out there.

Lily: Loved it. prop watch. Kira tells Malabok she is doing what has to be done.

But as a great power move, he starts working on, building his kiln. 

Cole: Right. 

Lily: cause he's like, I've always wanted to finish this and I never thought I'd get it done. But anyway, here I go. but In a shocking turn of events that we all saw coming, violence has ensued. and Malabok in an attempt to protect, the two mute, not extras who have been exploited. he is faced by one of the security team. it's all very dramatic. 

Cole: and 

Lily: I was [00:48:00] kind of on Nana's side for this whole episode. I feel like she was really underplaying it. But then, This, she goes full blown Kira with the acting. The Na is still learning 

Cole: to rein in the extreme shock, reactions, yes. I'm glad you were kind of on the Na's side though, that's promising.

Lily: I feel like for such a Kira centric episode is playing it down, 

Cole: She is, and you have to, because this is a, like I said, it's a quote unquote small episode that ends up becoming big . It 

Lily: it is. 

Cole: 

Oh, Another thing. the uniforms, the security guys, they're like, Kira, he stabbed me with a farm implement, which really tickled me.

Ah, farm implement. Yeah. And help me, Kira. It's like, what, no, this guy a pitchfork. You've got a phaser, you noob. , yeah, this is all sloppy. I did think, thought it was especially sloppy at first when he phasored Mulebok, and Mulebok fell over, severely injured, because I thought, well, in Star Trek, they can stun you with phasers, and so 

why didn't they just stun Mulebok? But then I thought, oh wait a minute, U. S. [00:49:00] police also have tasers, and they also don't have to shoot to kill, and yet, how often do they fail to do that? Yeah, they do. Right. When violence, when violence is an option , violence happens. 

Lily: Ugh. and everyone is re traumatized by their experiences with the Cardassians, and now their experiences with these people who are supposedly, Helping them on to their new life.

That's 

Cole: a great call every single person from moon dwellers to the security officer who shot Yeah, everyone's retraumatized. 

Lily: Yeah, but into the less traumatic storyline Best Friends Club Talking over the radio with a voice that sounds a bit like a Dalek But it's clearly Chano, the Bajoran who is mad keen for these self sealing Stambolds 

Cole: wants some bed.

He's got some stuff to self seal. 

Lily: He's doing what needs to be done with them. No questions asked by me. They introduce themselves as the NoJ Consortium, and it's very cute. I love that. A. K. A. 

Cole: Nogio and Jake-iette 

Lily: Is what that stands for. they quickly get pulled into another exchange of goods instead of Gold Press [00:50:00] Latinum.

 and this guy's offering land, which we all know is quite a risky investment. immediately says no, but once again, Jake is the yes man. And then he does an adorable little wink at Nog to , sort of Show like, come on, we can do this. 

Cole: Jake's feeling it in his little ears, his little human ears.

He's feeling that opportunity. 

Lily: he's a gambler. He's a, right Kenny Rogers, this guy. and then apparently the land is, the land is seven tessipates of land, which is the most insane unit of measurement that I've heard so far. 

Cole: two, two tessipates. To their credit, they actually circle back within the episode of this sort of metric system.

I forget what, because like, and it's not even land, it's Oh, think Kira has to administer a certain something pates of medicine later, so well done for consistency. We got a Bajoran metric system. But I do think when the guy's like, I've got seven tessipates of land, and Jake's like, that sounds good, without having any clue about the unit at all, is like, I know. 

Lily: Could be nothing 

Cole: Very, like, the Jake who wants to play Go Fish that's the Jake we're dealing with here. [00:51:00] Yeah. 

Lily: Yeah. That's really So yeah, it's quite funny.

they, start talking about whether land is land or land is dirt. but the distinction between these two things is apparently in the eye of the beholder. Jake thinks it's Landon, Nod thinks it's Jet. back at Mullerbox, Hut, Bashir is there giving his medical opinion. Questions why Akira didn't just take him to Bajor while he had been, knocked unconscious.

Which, why didn't she, ock refuses to go back to the station for medical care, then Keira signs up to be in charge of. but not only this, she pulls off her uniform jacket and we get to see her undershirt for the second time this season. Yes, 

Cole: the famous Keira Undershirt.

Lily: here it is. in all its netted glory. 

Cole: what if Kira's hard at work undershirt is in the running for like, all time series best fashion watch? I don't know. another question for us to ponder. Oh definitely. 

Lily: No, no, the answer is yes. Start the tally folks. And it's [00:52:00] just like in terms of how iconic it is because you know it's interesting to look at, but I think maybe more because of the juxtaposition with the uniform, rather than, um, being a really beautiful piece of fashion.

Mm hmm. 

Cole: But, uh, Iconic. It's iconic. It It's iconic. 

Lily: Getting down to work on this kiln 

Cole: yeah, okay. So we know the symbolism of Kira's little undershirt. What about the symbolism of this kiln?

Lily: I mean, yes. yes. The symbolism. so allegedly a task that Malabok has been putting off, something that needs to be done, doesn't need to be done. is there something in just, uh, Creating and just building something? Is there something about a kiln and the act of making something and then creating something new when it's put into fire and under pressure?

am I getting close? 

Cole: Um, that was all. Brilliant. All I had in my notes was he is trying to finish the kiln, he's trying to make progress on finishing the kiln, and uh, Kier is helping him make [00:53:00] progress because this idea of your own life can be history, right?

And Kier wants to help him make progress in his own life, however futile. It's just like this, it's his own mini development project, right? 

Lily: Also, I think it's anti that too, because it's, and hear me out, creating something just for the sake of creating something. 

Cole: Yep. 

Lily: Especially because it looks like, 

Cole: yeah, it looks like most of the work they're doing is just aesthetic, right?

Totally, 

Lily: these funny bricks that I did read were specially made and designed for this episode. Mmm. Nice. . Prep Watch. 

Cole: Yeah. It's just, the beauty of heaven. Your own pizza oven in your front yard, huh? . 

Lily: But it's not even about having it, it's just about building things, like creating things.

Cole: and 

Lily: I, yeah. 

Cole: I feel that's a great call. Yeah. 

Lily: I feel that. I feel that. 

Cole: And he has, you and I were praising his. DeLorean doors and Bajoran windows and he has built this entire life for himself. and obviously got joy, jubilation from, you know, satisfaction from creating this life for himself.

And now to be told, that's all going to be wiped [00:54:00] away. 

Lily: That's over for the sake of a hundred thousand people. 

Cole: I mean, way, way too few people for destroying an entire moon with, with an ecosystem, but 

Lily: look, it's more than 45 people, I guess. 

Cole: Um, 

Lily: anyway, in Ops, Bashir is doing some tattling to Sisko.

He says, and then she just. took off her uniform tunic, and it's like, yes, that was a big moment. I'm glad you noticed. 

Cole: Um, 

Lily: and then Sisko, deadpans, right now, she stands a pretty good chance of being out of uniform permanently.

Cole: Bashir does say she just started building, which is really what we were talking about this season. Sorry, 

Lily: I was distracted by the creepiness. 

Cole: He 

Lily: does say 

Sisko decides that he needs to lie to Minister Turan about the necessity of Kira staying on Gerudo. And Bashir, as usual, is not very quick on the uptick and, he's like, but that's not true.

What you want me to [00:55:00] say? to say that it's necessary for Kira to say that. And Sisko says, make it true, doctor. and Bashir is just like a tiresome little toad. And Sisko is so badass. 

Cole: See, whereas I thought there's something kind of tragic about this scene because you're witnessing Sisko corrupt poor Julian right before our eyes.

Like, Sisko's always been about bending protocol, ends over the means, and he's like, Bashir, it is time for you to lose your childlike innocence and get with the program. 

Lily: Yeah, but Bashir is a smug little worm who would happily be a nitpicky, bureaucratic piece of shit. 

Cole: but he's, 

Lily: gone to the frontier and he's gonna learn something today from Sisko.

Cole: Learn how to break the rules to make things happen, That that's a life skill. 

Lily: It's red tape, man. 

Cole: Down with red tape. I mean, I'm not, I'm not here to defend red tape by any means.

Lily: Oh, so we're on the same page then.

back at the shepherd's hutch, Kira is performing some medicines. and she doesn't Giving him some, some [00:56:00] calipates 

Cole: of medicine, 

Lily: I think. That's right. I don't 

Cole: know. 

Lily: Yeah, yeah, yeah, she's pretty angry at the situation they're in. and then has a own folksy tale, a parable about her childhood.

there was a big old ugly tree in her yard and it blocked out the sun for something that she wanted to see the sun for. And it had roots and the roots stopped everything from growing. And it was a nasty old tree. So you, you know, you sort of get the picture. 

Cole: I love a good parable. And 

Lily: yeah, and, Malabok asked, so did you cut it down? And she says, I don't know yet. 

Cole: I kind of love that 

Lily: I loved it. This, storytelling of it, when you're sort of creating these parables on the fly just the way you're feeling, in story form.

Cole: down Kira's learning to speak his language. 

Lily: Yeah,

Cole: She's on his level, for better or for worse. Yeah. 

Lily: Sisko is beaming down he arrives and he has some witty repartee with Malabook. these two have great chemistry because they're both apparently master manipulators in a way. They already speak the same language. 

but yeah, he says [00:57:00] that Kira is jeopardizing her career by doing what she's doing. Sisko asked to speak to her outside and Kira is building the kiln as they talk to each other. Sisko says, he doesn't want to break in a new first officer, which is sort of partly a threat, partly a warning about what might happen with the government.

and he says that she has a job to do and while it may not be simple, it cannot wait. Sisko empathizes that Kira is used to fighting for the underdog, but now she is the authority in charge. And while this may sit uncomfortably, she can't fight the authority when that's. what she's working towards now.

And Sisko is an African American man in a position of authority can quite rightly empathize with Kira's dilemma. 

Cole: That's a great connection. 

did you think he was almost undervaluing it when he said, you've spent your life fighting for the underdog and that's what this is? is that all that's going on?

Is this triggering some impulse for Kira to fight for the underdog does it run deeper for Kira? 

Lily: I think it does and it doesn't. And I think also there's nothing wrong with that running deep. That she has, she's fighting for the cause of the person sort of [00:58:00] being preyed upon, for the good of the many, 

But It's an interesting rhetoric that Sisko uses, do actually think he's empathizing and maybe it's not. What the, actor is bringing to the role as well, the way he did it. I think it's a really cool 

Cole: point. Yeah. Because he does manage see her and connect with her through this.

Lily: Yeah. more than say Picard 

Cole: could. Yeah, well, Picard and, you Ensign Ro had a very famous falling out, right? because Ensign Ro is just like Kira, she wants to fight for the underdog, and Picard felt betrayed by her and Sisko's like, look, I get it.

Lily: Yeah, he'll always get it. 

Cole: you going to talk about the little story, that told Kira, speaking of storytelling? 

Lily: Well, the compliments, thought that she was hostile and arrogant. 

Cole: Um, 

When I first met you, I thought you were hostile and arrogant. 

Lily: but

he was wrong, apparently.

Cole: I mean, isn't she hostile and arrogant? Like, is she, or is I can like Majakira and still think these things are true. so I'm not convinced that he's like 

Lily: But is she, or is she just not performing femininity the way we expect it to be performed?

Cole: [00:59:00] yeah. Okay. I think

Lily: We can all look inside ourselves because I too find Kira problematic. but why? The answer is the overacting Sorry, Nana. 

Cole: Yeah, frankly, 

Lily: We're off the hook. 

Cole: Oh, thank God.

Cole: But she's also been put, I mean, she does treat Sisko and the Federation hostily. She is arrogant about she thinks is best for Bajor compared to what the Federation does because she does know better She has been put in this really unfortunate position of having an answer to this Federation, who knows the situation less than her she has been hostile and arrogant and that's completely understandable I just, I guess Sisko sees through that and admires her. So maybe he's not telling a tall tale here. 

Lily: I think he's being real. I actually think he does like her. yeah, so he says, Bajor needs you and I need you.

I like you and I don't want you to be hurt. His fate is already decided, but yours isn't. 

Cole: I almost wish, um, the show did more with the Sisko Kiri relationship because it doesn't give us a lot of scenes about the two of them and this is one of the pivotal [01:00:00] ones of the whole show and I do really like it.

Lily: Ugh, there's so many layers. I'm telling ya. Yeah, that's a lot of yamok sauce. Ha ha ha ha ha! Is that right? Ha ha ha 

Cole: You nailed it.

Lily: Thanks. in the next scene, Kira is by Malabok's bed. sitting in a beautiful rocking chair. Propwatch, who was the carpenter on this episode, you know, let us know, reach out. 

Cole: Reach out. because you designed a beautiful shepherd's hut. Yep. 

Lily: great. Malabok is having a dream. Kira says he was having a bad dream, but he says it's just a dream filled with bad memories. and Kira soothes him. Is he feverish? Is he being manipulative? We're not really sure. 

then in, I guess , the way they've learned to communicate, they exchange some more witty barbs, but I like to believe it's a vulnerable moment. because he requests that she sleep next to him in the chair and sort of pull her chair a little bit closer so he doesn't feel alone. What do you think? For sure. 

Cole: think at this point, Molobok has become a father figure to Kira. Yeah. I just rewatched an [01:01:00] episode in season five called Ties of Blood and Water, where you see Kira in almost an identical position caring for an older man. And that episode actually goes into, it has flashbacks with her and her father.

And, the complex relationship she had with her father. So all this to say, is actually some amazing continuity over the years about how Kira can develop this closeness to older men, despite or because of how poorly they treat her. so I think there's a lot going on here. because, spoiler alert, Kira's dad was killed by Cardassians.

And so there's a void Kira's trying to fill here. I love the part when Mulebak wakes up and Kira says that he was talking in his sleep. He says, I didn't say anything, did I? And there's a little fear in his voice. And for someone who talks a lot, he tells lies and mistruths, and he's actually afraid of having revealed something real.

he's actually afraid of revealing the trauma of the occupation because another reason for telling stories. He's smoothed over, you know, he says, Oh, I killed those Cardassians. I, I escaped the Cardassians and killed them all. but [01:02:00] the truth is so much more horrible and so much more traumatic.

And tried really hard to bury that. And this is him getting even more vulnerable than he, that he wants to. 

Lily: what's that Tim Burton film, 

Cole: Big 

Lily: Fish? 

Cole: Big Fish. 

Lily: Yeah. 

So basically it's a son and he's by his father's deathbed and the father's telling him the story of his life, but it's all magical realism and it's all fantastical.

but really I think it's a life filled with trauma. and it's sort of this way of reframing. reframing or just rewriting your history. 

Cole: Yeah. again, a character who reminds me of Garak. This season we've had Garak, we've had the guy , from the Vortex. Deep Space Nine is really fascinated with dissembling mysterious characters with traumatic pasts. 

Maybe that's just a particular interest of the writers, but it's something I've started to notice. 

Lily: And arguably, except for Bashir, well, I mean, until later, it's all the, central characters as well. 

Cole: Yeah, no wonder Bashir sticks out like a [01:03:00] sore thumb, because he does not have a past he's trying to hide and bury.

He's still, he's still a green thumb. What does he? 

Stay tuned.

Lily: at quos again, the No Jay Consortium are playing cards and dressed in their finest, serious person attire, which is a purple over shirt for nog and a dark gray two-tone onesie for Jake. It's very adult. It's very dashing. but it's trouble in paradise, because they're still arguing over the merits of, and the distinction between land and dirt.

but what's this? They overhear Quark discussing the No J consortium with Odo. 

Cole: this, debate about, I think I just realized this myself, but Nog and Jake are debating is it dirt or is it land, which is almost a debate that Kira and Mullebacher are having.

Is this dirt or is this my home, right? 

Lily: Mmm, oh, delicious coal, yes. 

Cole: Thank you. That's 

Lily: That's good.

so Jake and Nug over here, Quark discussing this, mysterious No J consortium with Odo. 

Cole: [01:04:00] Odo 

Lily: says does Quark know who they are? Because, he needs to get in contact with the consortium.

The Bajoran government want to build a reclamation facility. What the heck is that? On some land

Cole: It's big developmental infrastructure project, obviously. A government led 

Lily: infrastructure 

 Great for progress and jobs. 

Cole: it's a job creator. Totally. 

Lily: so yeah, they want to build this on some land, which is owned by four different parties.

the other three have agreed, but they can't get in touch with the fourth party, which is Nojay, And Quark says, what a good opportunity for profit. and then there's a great little bit of direction where it's Odo and Quark talking and then it pans out to the faces of Jake and Nog and they're just delighted and they're beaming and practically shaking it's very cute.

Yeah, 

Cole: and they're, hiding quote unquote behind those golden poles. It felt very like Shakespearean, this terrible hiding place where the whole audience can see the people hiding. It's great. I 

Lily: loved it. and then we get a little close up [01:05:00] of Morn and we all in in to assess the seven or eight hairs coming out of his forehead to see whether they're cute or not 

Cole: And Lily says, not for me. Oh, no, they're 

Lily: comes up and sort of, comically offers Quark a business opportunity. and they have this stage where Quark tells him to sweep the floor, but it sort of becomes clear that, Nog has a secret. and then Quark sees Jake beaming behind him in the background and then pieces it all together, and realizes, no J, Nog, Juliet, Jake. 

And, I don't know, he seems a bit disgruntled. Does he seem proud? What is that emotion? 

Cole: Well, he's been, he's been Yeah, it's jealousy. he's been out Ferengied by his nephew. Sincere is full of fluttery. Yeah, his his idiot brother's son has out Ferengied him.

Yeah, do wish there had been a little more resolution to this plot line. for me, it ended a tad abruptly, 

Lily: Yeah, maybe they didn't know what to do with it, but I kind of like them just grinning. yes There are some deeper themes residing underneath this [01:06:00] plotline, but it also is just Best Friends Club hijinks And I can't, dunk on that, 

Cole: Yeah, whatever else there's to say this plot exists to be lightweight and thank God for that Yeah, 

Lily: Thank god because, next scene, back on the moon, Kira wakes to find that Malabok is up and about. He seems to have somewhat recovered, and he's back to building his kiln, Kira apparently has put her uniform tunic back on, a symbolic move. And while she goes to help Malabok and to finish with the last brick on the kiln, she says to him, it's finished. And what does she mean? She says, you finished your work and now it's time to finish mine. and she blasts the kiln with her phaser, destroying it.

And then she takes a torch and sets fire to the cottage.. 

Cole: Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. 

Lily: Prop watch, we all exclaim Prop watch. Prop 

Cole: watch we, shriek in horror. We sob, 

Lily: we cry. Prop watch. 

Cole: can I point out one, very, very, very slight thing I noticed. Kira goes back inside and he's starting a fire inside the [01:07:00] kiln and um, he lets out like a little cough, just this little old man cough, and it was so slight that it could have been edited out.

I think it was actually put in intentionally, but it's actually drawing this generational divide between Mullabok and Kira too. like this is an old man in the final phase of his life, trying to. defend his, his kingdom, right? He has, he's built a whole lifetime making life for himself and he's an old stubborn man and he doesn't have power anymore.

and it, it highlighted for me that this is also a generational divide story of, um, still trying to, make her legacy, build her life and an elderly man just desperately trying to cling on to, the last bits of dignity and, self preservation that he has. Like that that little cough broke my heart 

Lily: I, I was also thinking about, the generations of Bajorans and I wonder how many There are Mala Box age still alive. Yeah. It's like when you, when you go to Cambodia and there's just this whole generation of [01:08:00] people 

Cole: Mm. 

Lily: That don't exist there anymore because they were killed and whether that's true of Bajor.

Cole: Yeah.

And through that lens, this is almost horrific and perverse. I mean, imagine. like a younger generation who barely remembers the horrors of the occupation, or say the holocaust, saying like, yeah, excuse me, a holocaust survivor, but we're going to move you to a retirement home because we have to build this highway, you know, it makes, What's happening here, so much more perverse.

Lily: Totally. but the horrors don't end there. because heartbreakingly and I think, I think this is real, but it's also plays into sort of the mind games and the manipulation of their relationship, because this is a really fucked up thing to do.

But Malabok asks her for a mercy killing, which, imagine asking someone to do that, but I think. It's in earnest. He actually doesn't want to leave. You talked about him creating a kingdom, but I sort of don't see it as that.

I see it as a haven. he created a safe haven. For a really small amount of people who are all vulnerable and traumatized and he created [01:09:00] things that were comfortable and warm and soft and I think it's sort of the opposite of, creating glory for himself. It's more creating safety. 

Cole: Thank you. I didn't like it when I said the word kingdom and in fact, creating that safe space, I think it was genuine way back at the beginning when he invited Kira for dinner because that's his instinct.

He, he, everyone is welcome. Come sit down. Let me make some three hour route due for you. yeah. And that's his nature. And, yeah, he's a host. and being asked to leave and then become someone else's refugee. 

Lily: yeah. 

And maybe, we don't know the real ach.

We know the ach who has had his life disrupted again. Yeah. And had his safety taken away from him again. 

Cole: Because remember, he doesn't want us to know. he refuses. He's like, I didn't actually say anything in my sleep, did I? I do not want you to know who I am.

Yeah. 

Lily: Oh, devastating. 

Cole: so he's 

Lily: asked for the mercy killing, but Kira just can't do it. she won't do it. She can't do it. and he says to her, if I leave here, I'll die. And she says, no, you won't. I won't let you. and [01:10:00] then two to beam up with a close up on Kira's face, flames in the background. And that's the end of episode. 

Cole: yeah, I thought it was really small but powerful directorial choice. credit to Les Landau, the director. yeah, the episode ends with Kira and the flames behind her. It does not end with the two of them beaming up. So in a very small way, indignity of being shown actually being, kidnapped from his safe haven.

It just, like, spares him that one, that one grace, almost. 

Lily: Yeah. 

Cole: Ugh. As his 

Lily: home burns to the ground. 

Cole: Ugh. 

Lily: That's a lot of Yam sauce. 

Cole: Perfect. that's a lot of yammick sauce. 

Lily: That's an award-winning podcast. 

Cole: We're, 

Lily: we're progressing an 

Cole: winning podcast. Yeah, 

Lily: it's in development. Crushing. [01:11:00] yeah, 

Gut punch. think it's a great episode

Cole: Okay, good. I think it's very often dismissed as a boring Bajoran episode, but it's always, stuck with me ever since I saw it as a little kid, as a deceivingly simple, heartbreaking little story.

Lily: Yeah. you know, I gravitate more towards the episodes, that trudge around in the human condition rather than the sort of dramas or high sci fi conceptual stuff. no, this is my bag. 

Cole: this is the story of one quote unquote forgettable old man's life, uh, rather than the fate of the galaxy.

And I'm glad we spent time with it as devastating as it is. 

Lily: Yeah. And this is what I like about Star Trek. 

Cole: Yeah, exactly.

 okay. I think we've talked a lot about it over the course of the episode, but. A plot and b plot, weirdly both about land rights and dirt versus land. Weirdly, they both converged on the bajarin state seizing land for infrastructure projects. . I'm really curious if that was intentional.

Lily: it's gotta be, we'll give credit. It has to be credit [01:12:00] where credit just due. Yeah. 

Cole: I'm assuming they're giving all 47 moon dwellers, very high compensation to buy homes.

Reparations or 

Lily: something, yeah. Very 

Cole: high reparations that are never discussed. I think it's just assumed. 

Lily: I mean, they're not the Cardassians

Cole: they're not the code, don't suggest they are. there's a kind of crazy comparison between socialism and capitalism happening. Like Nog and Jake are learning how to navigate the free market.

Whereas Mullabok is a victim of a socialist state and like big government projects. And it's interesting because Star Trek always very happily resided in the land of socialist, egalitarian government. And it's like, actually can screw some people over. which is a very, I guess, refreshing and honest take, realm of Star Trek

Lily: Throw your hat in with, capitalism instead.

Cole: yeah, 

Lily: still like, 

Cole: how much are they saying about capitalism? Because again, Jake is just playing at it cause he doesn't need it. I don't know. 

Lily: aren't we all playing with it, Carl?

Cole: I mean, I'm not playing very well, but [01:13:00] yes. 

Lily: We can all agree neither of us are playing with it very well. think we made some interesting links as well to do with, the cyclical nature of history. 

as opposed to the linear. 

Cole: yes.

In fact, I was thinking that, NA and Jake, they're trading one thing after another and they're starting to despair. Like, is this ever gonna pay off? Are we just in this endless cycle of trading one thing for another? And then, I mean, it's almost a deus ex machina, but suddenly they do manage to upgrade and get the Latin and they want it.

But for a second, it looks like I'm going to be stuck in this endless loop trading meaningless stuff for meaningless stuff. So, 

Lily: But is that,

Is that anything more meaningful than getting gold press Latin and exchanging that for goods? 

Cole: Yeah, 

Lily: back to my original point about Luddites and whether it's wrong, and we've established I am one, is there a point to progress for progress's sake?

Cole: I think, 100%, 

Lily: I think that Malabok has a point and in a way Jake is, [01:14:00] he's like a young country or a young civilization full of hope and naivete and hubris, idealism, playing at it, just, just having a go and not thinking about what the consequences are. And Malabok is at the end of his life, like a civilization that's seen it all come and go, seen different occupations, seen a new, authoritarian regime in his mind come through, to come and, perpetuate atrocities, which they do.

They burn down his home. 

Cole: all the units we heard in this episode, we talked about. Rappages, Anticipates, and Bars of Latinum. these are all silly. frivolous units for things that don't matter. How can you measure the value of Mullabok's home? I mean, it's, priceless.

 It's immeasurable. And that's, the tragedy is that these boys are trading up and Mullabok, there's absolutely nothing that can be traded for everything that has meaning for him. 

Lily: The answer my friend is blowing in the wind. [01:15:00] 

Cole: I have drunk a lot of wine getting through. I am bummed 

Lily: out. I am sad. And now I'm thinking about the river dolphins again. 

Cole: I'm sad drunk

Lily: We haven't done this before. it's always, fuzzy or happy shall we lighten things up with some, uh, Fashion watch.

Cole: got really sad. please. 

Lily: contendence? 

Cole: Uh, just the immortal practicality of Kira's Undershirt. 

Lily: I mean, it's the clear winner. yeah. What else? Do 

Cole: did any of it compare to just the utilitarian glamour 

Lily: No, just what it symbolises, all kinds of things. In terms of things that represent the cyclical nature of the world, I do like being able to pinpoint the passage of time by the changing of the Jake onesie. 

Cole: if it's a Tuesday, he's wearing his jigsaw puzzle blue, green, and purple onesie.

Lily: Exactly. 

if it's, blue and green, [01:16:00] it's, go fish night at Quark's. prop watch, stunning. Watch. Every moment 

Cole: of this episode, 

Lily: featuring the heart. Every 

Cole: farming implement. A bit of 

Lily: farming implement, what did you say, Bajoran Gothic, great, 

Cole: they brought a Vermeer still life to life, which I think is very impressive. 

Lily: They did. 

Cole: And. 

Lily: They did. DeLorean, doors. And they reinvented what doors. Spoke DeLorean doors. They 

Cole: reinvented how doors function. I love that. Created a kind of bridge. They integrated.

Oh. Yeah. there's something so kinetic about. How they built that kiln. It almost made me want to spackle some cinder blocks onto other cinder blocks. It looked very, called to me. 

Lily: Spackle away, my friend, to create something just to create something as we learn. The stem bolts themselves, we didn't really go into it, but they had like a cool little mechanism. 

Cole: I read that a self sealing Stem Bolt was put up for auction and sold several thousand dollars, which, understandable. 

Lily: Yeah. 

Cole: well next week our imaginations run wild [01:17:00] in a very wild Deep Space Nine that I'm going to call now will be a lot of fun 

Lily: thank God. 

Thank God. I need, I need a chaser. 

Cole: Exactly. A chaser. Next week is indeed Odo literally chasing an emu around the promenade of DS9. 

Lily: Fab. An emu. I'm 

Cole: sorry, an emu. 

Lily: Yeah, it's an emu. Come on, mate. 

I've, I've got a bit of the sads, but, you know. That's life. 

Cole: Oh no, It's not linear. 

Lily: it's cyclical.

come back

again. I 

Cole: mean, my innocence was lost during my master's in development studies, and by the time I graduated, I realized that absolutely nothing humans did, would actually fix. everything and there would always be sadness.

So I've just, come to terms with that sadness. That doesn't mean not worth trying. that's a good point. Yeah. Sorry. That sounded incredibly cynical. But, again, 

 Life is full of give and take, just like Nog and Jake, giving and taking, and I think we all gotta keep trying. 

Lily: You give a card, you go fish. You take a card, you [01:18:00] go fish. 

 this time around watching Deep Space Nine. I am very fond of their friendship. 

Cole: Yeah, isn't it nice? Yeah. It's something that we lost over the course of this series because, of course their lives take them in different trajectories. 

Lily: But that's also life. 

Cole: That is, now, now I'm bummed out. 

Lily: Good, let's end it there. Come down to my level. 

Cole: let's sign off for now. 

Lily: Thanks for listening. 

 Bye! Bye! 

Cole: Look, as chaotic as that recording process was, I really enjoyed that episode.

Lily: Me too, it was great. And probably less chaotic than the last recording of the 

Cole: episode, so.