DAVID LIVINGSTON: Exclusive Interview (Part 2)

In the second half of our conversation with Star Trek director and producer David Livingston, we turn a spotlight on his directorial credits 'The Nagus' and 'The Storyteller.'  Along the way he shares behind-the-scenes casting insights, reveals his favorite character relationships, and argues what, in his opinion, makes Deep Space Nine the most enduring and addicting Star Trek show. 

Transcript

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David Livingston interview: Part 2

[00:50:00] 

Oh, hey, Lily. Hey, Cole. What's been going on? Oh, you know, just the usual, watching Star Trek, drinking wine, reading, some, feedback from the fans. So glad to see that, people are [00:51:00] enjoying our conversation with David Livingston as much as we did, or at least nearly as much. Nearly as much. I think, it was peak enjoyment to top it. well we've got part two queued up now. And, it's another doozy. Oof. I've never heard doozy used in the context of something good. Is that a thing?

, Um, You know when Charlie Brown is at the pitcher's mound and the ball is slugged back and it somehow inexplicably knocks his shirt off. 

, you know what I'm talking about? I don't but it's so folksy. So keep going. I feel like Talking with David Livingston we would pitch him a question and he would lob an answer back to us and just Knock our socks off with his answer. Yeah Oh, and look at that seamless baseball metaphor.

Do you watch Deep Space Nine? So talk a little bit about the Negus. and

that brings us to how David got in touch with us he reached out to us over Instagram, after listening to our episode of the Nagus and That reminds me, what's our Instagram handle? I forget. 

Deep Space Wine underscore podcast is our Instagram. Thank you for reminding me. Deep [00:52:00] Space Wine underscore podcast. Yeah. and I post a lot of stories, of wine content 

and Deep Space Nine content if you can imagine that. 

Yeah. It's fantastic. yeah, so there was a message in the inbox and it was from David Livingston and I could not believe it. I thought it was a prank and I immediately got in touch with you, and you had a similar experience. Yeah. 100%. I believe I asked you, is eight year old Cole peeing his pants with excitement?

And I believe my answer was no, 38 year old Cole is peeing his pants with excitement. Yeah, no, cute. And, um, just to assure you all, no pants were actually peed in, um, it's a myth. clarification. 

And then we rankled him into being on the podcast, of which this is part two of Yeah, a lot of fun. we get into a lot of the characters 

turns out we owe David Livingston a great debt of gratitude for getting Avery Brooks cast as Sisko, for example, That's right. Another way he's an unsung hero. 

And then I think my favorite part of this part of the interview was, Best Friends Club. Oh my god, yeah. Where we all talk about our favorite character relationships on the [00:53:00] show. yes, and we discuss who our favourite Best Friends Club is. And, uh, I'm pretty sure by the end of the interview, there was little best friends club happening And it was, Lily Cole and David 

Cole: Oh, 

step aside Jake and 

Lily: and then I think look, I don't want to jump the gun on this, but maybe we paved the way for another potential best friends club, which is Lily Cole and Armin Shimerman. I don't know. I'm putting it out there. We're ready to talk Shakespeare and Ferengis and everything in between. whenever you want. you know, our Instagram deep space one underscore podcast.

Correct. Oh my god, it's gonna be amazing. So without further ado, part two with David Livingston. so David we can briefly talk about. You're directing on the Nagus, because we were so thrilled to get your response to our podcast discussion of the episode.

 And not only did you direct the episode, but you also have a [00:54:00] writing credit. as well on this, is that right? 

David Livingston: through the graciousness of Ira Behr, I pitched a story about, all of these heavyweight, aliens coming to the station and Quark dealing with some kind of business issue. 

they didn't like that part of the story very much. What they did like, and they bought the story from me, about Jake teaching Nog how to read. They liked that story. and Ira was able to combine them, so it was a, all of a Ferengi centric, uh, episode.

and Ira didn't have to give me story credit, certainly should have taken co story credit. but he was very gracious, and I was still a producer on the show, and I've seen him many times over the past couple decades and I thanked him for that. But I, a little bit of ego boost, I'm the only person to have ever gotten a producer writing and directing credit on an episode.

It's amazing. Which means, which means nothing except, you know, vanity. 

Cole: Well, you did think the Jake and Nog storyline is heart of the episode and one of the most touching moments from season [00:55:00] one. So that, that came from you. I think you need to take credit for that.

absolutely. 

David Livingston: I do. I Recognize my son was what, 11, 10 or 12 at the time and, resonated. And, My son used to visit the set and he would pal around with these guys. Sorok and he became kind of buddies, Ered was older, Ered, bless his heart, is deceased, but what a delightful human being, but Brian, my son would come and he'd hang out with Sorok and pal around and stuff and, I just, that kid stuff really, it touched me and I, it just came into my head.

Um, one interesting thing is, uh, I told you , they didn't know what to do with the businessman story. got to go to the story break, which is where, the writers have a big white board and they write with an erasable black pen, the beats and the scenes. And it's amazing experience because I'm not a writer to see the whole episode happen in about an hour and a half and it's all right there.

but they couldn't figure out what to do with the businessman part and Michael Piller [00:56:00] never forget it. He said, Why don't we do the Godfather? And everybody in the room lit up. Yeah! Let's do the Godfather! Michael turns to Ira Behr and says, Ira, write the Godfather. And over the weekend, Ira wrote the Godfather and handed it to me, on Monday.

And I died and went to heaven. The Godfather is One of the great, Godfather 1 and 2 are two of the greatest films ever made. Talk about family. it's, it's a movie about family. It's not a gangster movie. it's a movie about family. And that's what we did. We did an episode. about family where one brother is going to kill the other brother.

How much more dramatic is that? Yeah, was giddy. It was one of those shows where I couldn't wait to see it. to get to the set each day, to go into that world. It was so there for me. And I felt so in touch [00:57:00] and excited. And it was funny. It was a comedy. Ferengi are the goofiest characters ever created.

But I don't think you can take your eyes off them in that episode because they're doing all these machinations which are so human. I've said this before to me, Ferengis are more reflective of humans as we are today than anybody else on the station. They're the true, they're the true reflections of current day humanity with all the works.

That's maybe a bit of an exaggeration but I love Ferengis. Schumermann is a dear friend. I love Ferengis. 

Lily: Yeah. 

David Livingston: and Ira created, with the rules of acquisition, actually started earlier, he wrote a whole book about the rules, there's 200 and something, whatever, but Ira knew the Ferengi better than anybody.

And he wrote the heck out them. So, thank you, Ira, for the Nagus and for Rules of Acquisition. two really terrific episodes. 

Lily: Amazing episodes. Yeah, I 

David Livingston: think so. 

Cole: [00:58:00] okay, Lily, what was this rumor you heard about the Nagus? As a, as a name, right? 

Lily: yeah. So I read this somewhere. I think it was on a message board somewhere that, your nickname became the Nagus. Is think I was reading that, Marvin Rush started calling you the Nagus on set. Oh, oh, yes. 

David Livingston: Oh, you're absolutely right. Yes, he did. Yeah, Marvin and I had a fraught relationship. Oh gosh. it was tough, uh, because I would put him into lighting situations. where he couldn't put the lights, because I would do a lot of fancy stuff with a camera. And he thought that I was, I wasn't being responsible. and I made him work, but, but, but he always delivered. 

And I had a conversation with him a year or so ago, and we talked about it. And I said, I know I made things difficult for you. And he said, yeah, you did. But he said the work was worth it [00:59:00] and that meant a lot to me. I was not the favorite director of the crew or the cast that I worked with. but, but sometimes, Kate Mulgrew on Voyager and I had a very, very difficult relationship.

But on the last day that I directed, she called me into her trailer and said, I know we've had our discussions. But I just want to tell you that the work was good and coming from Kate Mulgrew, who was a really tough personality, that meant a lot. And I'm not trying to stroke myself or anything, but, again, it's gratifying to know.

That even though I drove people crazy that, that the work got recognized and, take that to the bank. 

Lily: I think the results speak for themselves really. I mean, 

Cole: She saw that and we saw that. 

Lily: Yeah. 

Cole: okay, as long as we're talking about the Godfather, I mean, clearly, everyone behind the scenes are also big film buffs, like we are.

 You even recreated the entire opening [01:00:00] scene of the Godfather in the Negus. Absolutely. It was like a shot for shot. so the film buff in me was just nerding out. You had the blinds behind Quark in space, which I think is hilarious. You had the turn of his hand, just the way Marlon Brando does.

attention to detail really impressed me when I looked closely. There's no time to prep anything, 

David Livingston: but at the production meeting you can ask for certain things. so, in the production meeting, we were talking about the set for, Quark in his quarters or wherever, his office, I don't know what it was. And I said, I would like blinds on the window.

Berman turns to me like this. he could be very stern. He says, we don't have blinds in space. I turned to him and I said, and this is in front of a room of 20 people and he's reprimanding me. He says, we don't have blinds in space. I turned to him and I said, Rick, we're doing the Godfather. And He takes another B.

He takes another B. Okay. [01:01:00] He liked the humor. He says, okay, you can have your blinds. That was the first thing. And then we don't have time to prep scenes and stuff. So when we got to the scene, I had a cassette of the opening shot of the Godfather and, I showed it to everybody. I showed it to Marvin and I said, Marvin, this is Gordon Willis.

And his deal is to top light everything. So that you don't see into the eyes and that you have all these shadows and you really don't see a lot that's going on And can you do that? He says, yeah, I'll do that. So he lit it like, I mean, it's still brighter than Gordon Willis, but still it's Gordon Willis style uh, lighting.

Um, I showed Armin the opening shot of the Godfather. and asked him to recreate Brando's movement, especially in light of him having these incredibly big ears, which made that movement even goofier and funnier. Um, I, I asked Michael Westmore, I said, Michael Westmore, I need an alien cat because in [01:02:00] the opening shot of The Godfather, Brando's petting his cat.

So we needed a creature. So Michael said, yeah, I got something we can use. So we had a puppeteer there to, to work the cat. so and then I showed Marvin the pullback, and I said, Marvin, , just, let's just do that shot. So it was a shot starting on the guy in the chair, and he's talking about wanting to give favors from the Godfather, and we pull back over, and, and you don't know it's Quark yet until he does Brando gesture.

And then we pull out and see him in all his glory the shuttered windows. So, yeah, the genesis of all that. But I ever wrote If they write it, you gotta shoot it. I mean, come on. How any other director, you're gonna do that shot. He didn't say to do that shot. It's not in the script to do that shot.

But you do that shot. It's a no brainer. 

Cole: By the way, Lily's kind of looking like, the Negus slash Marlon Brando right now. You've got those blinds behind you. You're looking very intimidating. You do! 

Lily: That's cool. Thank you. Yeah. not [01:03:00] intentional. I just, rent a house that was built in the seventies. 

David Livingston: Um, 

Lily: actually my, my cat almost jumped up on my lap before I should have let it happen. That would have been an amazing 

Cole: Okay. there was one more thing I wanted to ask about the Negus and the Godfather because. Lillian and I love seeing the source material in episodes like that and seeing how it, comes through in the final episode. And we really ran with the Godfather in our episode discussion on the podcast and realizing that it was this Godfather homage, made us see the Ferengi as the Italian American immigrants.

on the station. 

David Livingston: Absolutely

Cole: Right? And then that really helped us connect the A plot and the B plot, of course, when Jake is teaching Nog how to read, because suddenly, you know, Sisko is, trying to keep his son away from son of immigrants, from a disreputable family. But turns out Jake helping Nagreed integrate into society.

And that, it was just amazing moment when we saw how those complemented each other. So I have to ask you, You were the one who had [01:04:00] pitched that reading story too. did you see the A and B stories complementing each other like that or in some other ways when you were either pitching it or directing it?

Well, when I read the script, 

David Livingston: yeah. Okay. Bottom line is Sisko was a racist. Yeah, and, Avery Brooks is as far away from a racist as any human being could possibly be. Sure. And, but he played the hell out of it. but it was racist. He was not accepting of that other culture. And there was some justification for his point of view because they gave him a lot of trouble.

At least traditionally, and he, out the miles of babes, his son had to teach him a life lesson. And that's one of the magic parts of the, of the episodes that, that the father learned from the son. And that's the core heart the episode. The moment when Sisko walks in and he sees it happening, that look on Avery's face, he doesn't, tell you a lot.

But he tells you enough and then the [01:05:00] last scene when he ruffles his son's hair and says, Go, I'm getting a chill thinking about it because it's, it's impactful to me. go off and be with your friend and he uses the word friend. and that, that's what Star Trek could capture on occasion.

And we had the kind of characters and actors. and situations and conflict that could pull that off. Yeah. 

Lily: and I think what you've said about what you like about Deep Space Nine, that play between the love and hate within the dynamics, within the characters. Everybody hates and loves each other at the 

David Livingston: same time on the show.

They're always in conflict and when, and that's the magic of the show because It's life, we all have issues, but they're forced into this claustrophobic, literally world, it's, it's, gun smoke, it's not wagon track. Right. and that, that forces the people into situations that they would normally not be in.

Ferengis would be off on their own planet. They wouldn't want to [01:06:00] be dealing with Hoomans. Why? they want to make profit and get a lot of 

Cole: it's this Western outpost where all sorts of different characters converge and have to interact with each other and survive together out on this frontier. 

David Livingston: Exactly 

Cole: yeah, I love that take. gosh, we invited you here to talk about the storyteller. So maybe we can, move to that.

because , we watched it and we both love it. It has this epic myth like quality. and felt like Deep Space Nine's biggest show up to that point. I mean, you were basically telling a monster folktale. the Dalarok scenes especially were very impressively directed. They had big coordination of extras, set pieces, special effects.

was it as hard to put together as it looks? 

David Livingston: Um, the hardest part of the show was when we were doing the Dalarok scenes, we had to use, these big wind machines and, the motors on them and the wind itself makes a lot of noise. and you couldn't hear anything. And I had to use a bullhorn to direct the scenes when that was [01:07:00] happening because otherwise nobody could hear me.

was an ego trip to use the bullhorn. I felt like an old time, you know, Hollywood director speaking through the megaphone. But, uh, that was hard. And it was hard on everybody because all that air rushing around and the noise and stuff is very enervating and, it sucks the energy out of you.

And, I had to keep pumping myself up to be able to pump up everybody to, understand what the stakes were. The stakes were very high. It was their survival. They all had to be on the same page. And you're dealing with extras. Extras don't usually do the kind of stuff they did , in this episode.

They had to act. usually they're walking back and forth mm-Hmm, , they have no connection to the scene. These extras were integrated into the story and critical because you couldn't just have four actors there. You had to have the sense that there is a village and Mm-Hmm, that, and that the cohesiveness of the village will finally save themselves because of what they can do.

with their telepathic abilities or whatever. And again, the job was [01:08:00] to keep everybody on the up and up. 

Lily: David, that so incredibly meta, that story about the storyteller.

 In the episode, we're trying to decide who the storyteller is. and I think the storyteller was probably the director of the episode. the idea of you pumping up the extras, getting them excited, collective 

David was this. Sobre giving everyone a motivational speech. That's perfect. 

David Livingston: Well, that is kind of, that is pretty meta, my only direction at the beginning of every take was ENERGY go faster instead of saying action, ENERGY. If they're not invested Are you going to be invested watching now? You can care less if they're la di da. Yeah. 

Lily: Have you watched it recently, the storyteller? 

, I did watch it probably within the past couple months. And I gotta tell you, I got a huge kick because I forgot how much fun it was, but it's the interaction between, Bashir and O'Brien.

David Livingston: And that, was the beginning of their relationship Don't call me sir. and , [01:09:00] their interplay. is comic timing. My, favorite, moment in the, in the show is when, Bashir is eating an apple and he's calm and collected and nothing bothering him or anything and life is a bowl of cherries or, like a delicious apple Bashir is walking back and forth in the frame, absolutely insane about, How am I going to deal with this?

And Bashir could give a Royal Rats. So, now, now, Armin Shimerman, because I talked to Armin about, I, I've heard him comment about that scene. And he says, I don't think David directed that scene properly. He said, there should have been coverage on O'Brien. to see O'Brien struggle. And I'm saying, 

Lily: wow, that's 

David Livingston: not funny.

What's funny is to see the guy eating an apple while the other guy is in torment. That, that's, otherwise it would have been all, oh, strum and drum. Yeah, I don't need that. They were funny [01:10:00] together. And if you don't go for the comedy, It's dry and dry. So I, was pleased with that. I like that.

Good.

Cole: I mean, that scene might have even been the start of their friendship because you see Julian learning how to poke fun at O'Brien. and then , that dynamic plays out for seven seasons. So you see them both sort of loosen up. 

David Livingston: Bashir was treated as a dandy, initially, which was a really bad call, and in that scene, he has an insouciance about him that he hadn't had before.

He was much too serious, much too buck up his ass, and much too, he was, he was a dilettante, and that's not Sid. You gotta write to the person you have, but also write an interesting character. Bashir was not interesting, at least, I don't remember seeing all the other episodes, but in this episode, to me, he became interesting.

He started off as a pain in the ass, And he evolved as a character, at least in relationship to O'Brien. And I thought [01:11:00] that was wonderful. And, Bashir became integral, essential part of the cast and wasn't just a second banana player. Yeah, 

Cole: Lily, you had realization about what happens to Bashir in the episode.

Lily: Um, I think that, we discuss in the podcast that, this is the redemption arc for the character of Bashir. Because, yeah, as you say, previously, he is incredibly unlikable, participating in some quite creepy behavior with the women and, uh, yeah, just not likeable at all.

And this is the beginning of his redemption arc where he, kind of looks outside of himself, and sees that there are other people having complex lives. and previous to that, it's like, that isn't something that factors into his, his Yeah, it's 

David Livingston: interesting in terms of writing and when you cast, they, they finally found a voice for Bashir.

And I'm going to give you another example, and that's Avery Brooks. Michael Piller, wanted us to consider, African Americans for the part. Do you know this story about? The evolution of [01:12:00] Sisko, um, Michael Piller said he wanted to consider African American actors for the part of Sisko. Um, I went to Junie Lowry and said, I had done a movie of the week as a production manager, for Showtime.

And did a, a version of Uncle Tom's Cabin and Avery Brooks played Uncle Tom and his performance was devastating so I recommended him to Juni Lauer, the casting director. She says, Oh, I think he was on the list or something. but, but he's in the Caribbean on vacation. And I looked at her and I said, Juni, here's a man that could audition for a show that could last seven years.

and give him financial security for the rest of his life and seven straight years of work. you think he's not going to want to read a script his vacation? So she said to me, okay, I'll send him the script. He got the job, parenthetically at the wrap, Avery, as you see Sisko.

And I'm going to get to the point I'm trying to make about Sisko. Take your time. [01:13:00] He's not one to be easy to talk to or to hand out compliments or any, he's, he's tough. He's a really tough read. But he pulled me aside at the wrap party and he said, I want to thank you for recommending me for Deep Space Nine. 

It could have been my best friend telling me that, and it would mean one iota of what somebody like Avery Brooks said to me. But that was Avery. a magnificent personality. He had a one man show of Paul Robeson, where he sings a lot of the stuff that Robeson sang. Paul Robeson was a, uh, was basically run out of the country because he was a supposed communist and it's a terrible story.

but he was a magnificent creature and Avery has this magnificent performance of him. So that's Avery Brooks. We start the season and it's not working. There's something about Sisko. There's a [01:14:00] disconnect. There's, it's not only in the character, but it's also in the relationship.

to the show. It's not happening, it's not gelling. and the fault was not Avery, the fault was the writers. They were not writing to the actor that they had. They didn't write to him. And Avery was the exact right choice for the show because he imbued the whole cirrus and angst and I'll say darkness and trauma.

His wife gets killed in the pilot. He's left with a son to raise. That stuff they, they abandoned. They didn't play, they didn't go to his strengths. They finally did. And it's magic. When Avery started being able to play himself, it changed the dynamics and how they wrote for him with his son. It's the most moving on the show.

[01:15:00] Without it, it would be soulless. So, it's a primer for writing to the character, but also writing to the actor that has to play the character. and ultimately that's what they found out about Bashir. And yeah, write to them, write to who we have standing on the stage for, not for something in, in our heads. want another story? 

You have time? 

Lily: Yes. . 

David Livingston: We, were casting Odo. Michael Piller, who created the character of Odo and wrote it, his, his, template was John Wayne. Or Matt Dillon, we brought up Gunsmoke. Totally. Well, that, that's who he wrote. Okay. Okay. We're casting Odo. Rene Auberginois, who ends up playing Odo, walks into the casting session.

Before he opened his mouth, Rick Berman, who I was sitting next to, kicked me under the table. And I looked over at him and I said, yeah, he didn't even open [01:16:00] his mouth. But Odo stood there. He was in a faint, pressing Above it all, the, the absolute 180 degree opposite of John Wayne. He was not John Wayne.

He was an effete prissy guy. Come on, what do you mean you're looking up, Cole, like I'm not telling you something? It's the opposite of John Wayne. Who wouldn't want Rene? He railed against it. He fought Rick over and over. He's not who I wrote. Well, when magic walks into the room, you buy it.

So it was one of those things where a writer had an idea that he wanted, you know, Marshall Dillon walking in and doing the John Wayne routine. Cole, you, you seeing the difference? Okay, 

Cole: I mean, I was nodding because Odo that, that lone, sheriff, he's that western sheriff, that gruff, repressed, all internal emotions, like a [01:17:00] John Wayne.

But of course, Rene comes in with this vulnerability that you start getting from episode two. And that's, what makes audiences fall in love with him. hard on the outside, but he's soft and gooey on the inside. And you can tell, and I don't think John Wayne ever gave us that.

David Livingston: Well, have you ever seen The Searchers? A long time ago. Well, the John Ford movie, one of the great scenes. Can I tell you about that? John Wayne. Natalie Wood plays John Wayne. a woman who was kidnapped by Native Americans and he has to go rescue her. When he rescues her, he picture up in his arms and he is so, uh, racist toward Native Americans and the fact that they had killed a lot of his friends and he'd killed a lot of them and, and now he's holding what he considers a half breed.

And in that moment, John Wayne is, you don't know whether not he's going to squeeze her to death. or Comforter. And it's John Wayne's greatest moment where he [01:18:00] revealed his empathy and his rage all in that, it's love and hate again in that one moment. So I, I take exception to you saying about John Wayne, but are you telling me that John Wayne was Prissy?

And, and mean, Lily, help me out here. He's not John Wayne. 

Lily: He is not John Wayne. 

David Livingston: He's in a feud. He's feud. With his heiress superiority. He's a changeling. After all, the changelings are gonna take over the world. 

Cole: okay, Lily and I were debating. It's so interesting how Odo is a shapeshifter, but he's also so rigid.

And maybe it's irony, But maybe I it wrong. see Odo as this very robotic, the way he holds his arms, and he really doesn't want to let anything out. Lily, what do you think? 

Lily: Okay, so I guess, um, What I get from the character of Odo is that it's not a typical depiction of masculinity for the actor, Rene.

he's not embodying masculinity in the way that, well, I suppose the [01:19:00] typical American John Wayne, archetype exists. Yeah. So I think maybe that's at the heart of it. 

Yeah. but I think that Cole is also sort of correct in this idea that he, is embodying one element of this, idea of the American masculine sort of cowboy encapsulation of what it is to be a man, which is to be alone. which is to be alone.

David Livingston: Yeah, absolutely. And he is, constable, so he's got to have those qualities. I'm just saying that how he portrays that character. Again, he walked into the room and he had, I'll help you out here a little bit, Cole. When he walked in, he was Odo. forget about the John Lane and anything else, it's that his persona he prepared himself as Odo.

and that's the key to auditions. He came in as Odo, And he didn't have to open his mouth, but writers get these things in their head where they see something different and it's beaten up against a brick wall. But [01:20:00] thankfully, Rick won the day Renee was cast. 

Cole: Look, I said to Google the definition of a feat, because maybe I had it wrong. Affected Affected and overly refined. And I do, I like that take on Odo, this overly refined, Constable. 

Lily: Yeah. 

David Livingston: Yeah. but he does smile some. he smiled at an episode I did. He smiles 

Cole: in the storyteller. He smiles in the storyteller. Is that it? Okay. so far, he's smiled twice.

We're 14 episodes in and he's only smiled at children. Yeah. And, yeah, I think that was, Renee's choice. Which 

David Livingston: it's a great reflection. of his character, because inside of him, he's mush. Literally mush. I mean, he goes into a bucket. I mean, come on. So, so, it's that richness and layered nature of all of the characters on Deep Space Nine.

They all reached that point. And the writers gave them that canvas. And That's what made, to me, made the show [01:21:00] magic. The next generation, Rick took me off directing. I directed two of them. And then he said he wanted me to stay on DC9 because that was his baby. And you know, I was his boy toy or whatever.

He wanted, he wanted me to you know, do my thing and. Help out from a production standpoint. but they were all goody two shoes. And did one episode where they weren't goody two shoes and, and Data tries to kill Picard. That's good, but that was not the normal case on The Next Generation.

Just too much goodness. 

Cole: Too much goodness. Sure. It gets old after a while. 

David Livingston: Yeah, but had its highest rating in the, in the seventh year and we were nominated for Best, Dramatic Series, but We lost to Northern Exposure. Hmm. It's okay. 

Cole: Okay, speaking of children, I do want to give a shout out to the second storyline in the storyteller.

 with Sol, the Bajoran diplomats, who Nog and Jake end up chasing after and competing over. we thought they all had amazing performances. You brought up some really great performances from all three of them, Cirroc and Aaron and Gina [01:22:00] Phillips, who played Varis Sol. what was it like working with these, younger actors?

David Livingston: I would've done that 24 7. Uh huh because they have no, at that point, they have no filter. Aaron May have, 'cause he was older. Mm-Hmm. . But even he had this unbelievable, I, he was the most innocent creature you can imagine. So that innocence and that lack of. that adult filter. That's me. I want to be like that.

So I fed off, I fed off their energy. It was delightful to work with them. I wanted to try and capture that sense of awe and first love and all of those wonderful things they wrote. in the episode and a young girl thrown into having to pretend to be a great leader and, and she's gonna go, she's gonna bull bust everybody, but you don't believe her for a second.

She's, a kid. Come on, until she gets a life lesson. and seeing them together, I, I love the scene where they come to the, the [01:23:00] door and, and they're arguing and, , she'll, cause neither one wants to push the doorbell. So she opens the door because she hears them out there And then they just storm right in and Cirroc, I don't know if it was my direction or he, did it himself. He puts his feet up on her desk, their coffee table. And, you know, we're we're just gonna hang out, you know. Well, okay, that's what they do. And, would adults do that?

No. If you had a highfalutin person come on the station, you're gonna be bowing to them. You're not gonna be putting your, your feet on their table. So that, in a sense. Uh, perpeated, all of the scenes with them and I found it delightful. And the scene where Nob throws the oatmeal on them and stuff.

I mean, the antics that they had. Delightful writing and they all played the heck out of it. 

Lily: Yeah, I think sort of leads me to my next question. you've said in interview and also in this discussion today that Avery Brooks was very much the heart and soul of Deep Space Nine. and he [01:24:00] does give just this incredible nuanced performance but over our discussions our podcast, I've sort of come to think of Jake and Nog as the heart of the show, at least on season one. and we're just wondering what do you think telling these kids stories did for the tone of, of the show and the tone of life on the station?

David Livingston: Yeah. Uh, it's humanized, yeah. I mean, Wesley Crusher as a character failed on the next generation. 

Cole: Yes. 

David Livingston: failed. They didn't get it. again, Gene wanted super people and the kid was evolved and it was not good.

Yeah. They didn't do that with the kids. They were real kids. They were allowed to be kids. They were allowed to be kids. And that innocence added so much dimensionality to the show and, and made it a much richer human experience. Ultimately Deep Space Nine is about a dysfunctional family and dysfunctional people also have kids.

Yeah. Look at the relationship between [01:25:00] Nog and Ra, and Quark so that's revelatory to me, Lily, when you say that that was the heart and soul, because as I think about it, I think you're right, because, That really had an emotional underpinning to everything, so, bravo on that.

I agree. 

 

Lily: so, on the podcast, we also have this thing, that we call Best Friends Club, where we talk about all the great friendships on Star Trek, in television, in film. in DS9, the Best Friends Clubs that make the characters so much fun to be around. and we did briefly talk about, in the Storyteller, um, not knowing that Bashir and O'Brien were, destined to be friends, but this is sort of the, the beginning of this friendship, this great friendship that exists.

can we ask you what is your favorite friendship in Deep Space Nine? 

David Livingston: Um,

I have to say Garak and Odo. Hmm. Because of the dynamic, 

Lily: good answer, 

David Livingston: these are two, people who are not in the preferred world. they're not [01:26:00] among their own kind. Hmm. And they are in positions of, I'll say, power or, ability to affect the circumstances of what's going on.

that are all subtext. they're not reflective of what they really are and what they would really be doing, especially Garak, after all, he's just a tailor. 

Lily: A simple tailor 

David Livingston: and that dynamic and how these two outlier characters have this, again, love hate relationship, to the point where one of them tortures the other.

And yet, they in some way resolve that relationship. so you have these outsiders peering in, but having integrated into the whole human community. I consider myself a loner and they're the two ultimate loners on the show. And loners maybe seek in a perverted way, some form of companionship, knowing that [01:27:00] they are suffering because they're both suffering the same thing. 

Dif, circumstances. They're both not in the situation that they would ideally like to be in. 

Lily: they're such vulnerable characters, aren't they? And it does Throughout the series, they do both seem to be desperately seeking intimacy and companionship from people, but with no clear understanding of quite how to do that.

David Livingston: Exactly. what's, who are your two faves?

Cole: Well, I was, Kira, think it's a very controversial pairing in terms of where it went. And I'm not sure I personally believe how it turned into a romance. And conversely, there was a romance in a sense between Garak and Bashir and the way that turned out was almost more realistic because I think Garak was desperate for some form of intimacy, but for all sorts of reasons,

Both on and off camera. 

Cole: it couldn't come to fruition with Bashir the way he wanted to, and maybe we as an audience, at least I wanted to, to see that go and [01:28:00] there was, that's sort of connection from distance that it had to be throughout the whole series that made it heartbreaking and makes it maybe my favorite dynamic is Garak and Bashir, whereas Odo and Kira, I think is also a beautiful friendship that maybe was taken to an unrealistic extreme, in my opinion.

David Livingston: No, that's, that's great. Thank you for that. it's great to see these other perspectives and, who resonates the most. So Lily, 

Lily: Okay, So, We're deep in season one with the podcast, and one of my favorite relationships that's playing out is the Quark relationship. we've talked about some of the episodes how at times their, interactions feel like a romantic comedy, that they're sort of, in this cat and mouse relationship, but also, you know, sharing the day to day intimacy of Odo every day being in the bar, always watching, There's a Stephen Sondheim song, Being Alive, 

Cole: Mm. 

Lily: and it kind of reminds me of their relationship.

It's, you know, someone to crowd you and someone to, to stop you from [01:29:00] sleeping and yeah, and like to think of their relationship as this romantic comedy, for a romance that never happens. But also, I think we talk about how, their relationship at times and the way it's, I guess, directed and written, feels.

like Film Noir, it feels like, Bogart, I just think there's so much to play with there and maybe that's because of Schumann and René, um, and what they're bringing to it. 

David Livingston: I think that's a great take. they are two diametrically opposed personalities and that automatically creates this void.

Which they then are able to, in some way, mesh but because they're so contrasting, it's funny to watch them together. I love doing the scenes with them because, you know, Odo's like this and Quark's always trying to, figure out the angle and, and that dynamic is great. So thank you both Cause it's so cool to, mean, how is this after 30 years, I'm sitting here doing this. It's, it's crazy. You guys. you didn't see this when you were two years old. [01:30:00] 

Cole: Thank you for thinking we're young. I mean, But I, I mean, Deep Space Nine is what made me fall in love with television. I was in middle school and it was maybe fourth and fifth season, Deep Space Nine. I just fell head over heels and was obsessed little 13 year old.

And it's Whereas Lily, I had to convince her to watch it. And newbie. 

Lily: Yeah, yeah. I'm always late to the party on these things. so I came to Star Trek quite late in the game. So sort of like my late 20s, I started watching some Star Trek, and Cole and I had been friends for a few years, and he was always telling me you have to watch Deep Space Nine, and it always felt a bit unfamiliar compared to, Next Generation, and everything you're saying makes total sense about why it felt that way, but I think as soon as I started to really properly watch it.

It was mind blowing. and I think, we were talking about this, that the show feels so immediate, to this present moment that we're in, you know, in the post COVID, post Trump, post housing crisis, late, late stage capitalism, This show feels like something so important to be watching [01:31:00] now, and I think maybe that's why.

How 

David Livingston: prescient, how prescient were the writers. yeah, it's still resonating. It, it's quite extraordinary. I, again, I'm so grateful for the quality of the writing and, and I can't think of another show that explored all these things because there were so many ways you could tell a It was an L.

A. lull. If you do L. A. Law, you'd have to, you know, it's formulaic. This is how you do the show and you have beginning, middle, and end. And it's there. This, throw caution to the wind. and the writers did do that and the studio, I had to prepare the pattern budget every year and every year I'd asked for more money and every year they gave us more money because it was the goose that laid the golden egg at the time, they knew they had something.

But if you asked anybody, any of us back then, if any of us would be in this situation and that we would still be going to, conventions and talking on podcasts, I would have said, you're nuts. You're crazy. It's a goofy science fiction show, but it's not because then it's part, It deals with the human condition in a [01:32:00] multiplicity of ways, which, uh, it's pretty extraordinary.

Deep Space Nine is not Star Trek. It's Deep Space Nine. It's, 

Cole: Agreed.

David Livingston: its own creature. 

Lily: Yes.

Cole: I mean, speaking of oppressions and immediate storytelling, there was that Deep Space Nine episode, about the homeless crisis Sisko travels back in time.

And I believe it's, actually to 2024 and witnesses just how awful homelessness is. the homeless crisis has become in the United States. And so here we are 

And David here you are also doing what you can. 

Cole: for that cause in LA. 

Did you want to take a chance to tell us more about photography project you've been doing and your work with the homeless crisis in LA? 

David Livingston: Um, my wife and I walk our dog a lot and we go to Santa Monica and walk along the Pacific Palisades, overlooking the ocean and the Santa Monica Pier and, I'm a professional photographer now, but I hadn't been doing my personal photography for years because I was so wrapped up in my job and in 2019, I decided to do personal photography again.

And I shot on my iPhone, [01:33:00] which is the greatest photographic instrument ever invented. and I'm a street photographer as my personal work. And nothing is better to shoot street photography with than an iPhone, because of its intimacy and its smallness and it's not in your face and a multiplicity of reasons.

so we're on our walks and I'm taking all these pictures just going nuts with it. Then I'd come home and I'd edit and look at the photos and invariably the vast majority of the photos were of homeless people. And I said, wow, that's saying something to me, eh? This is, you know, it was there, but I started looking at it.

So I said, that's what I'm going to do. I'm going to, for six months, I'm going to photograph these people. I'm going to talk to them. I'm going to try to know their stories and, see what happens. So I got together all these photos, all shot in an iPhone, and decided to have a couple photo exhibits and.

The [01:34:00] response was, was, so impactful because the photos resonated with people. I am all about color and saturation. So what I did with the photos is I made them super realistic. A lot of the homeless photos that you see are people black and white and very depressing.

And it's, Oh God, what I wanted to do was show that they're people just like us and that they can have lives as well. And I'm going to present them in the most positive, colorful, exuberant way that I can. That's what I did. Some people may have thought it was exploitative. The vast majority said, We get it.

We see what it did was it, it drew your eye rather than force you away from the photos, which the black and white to me did. It drew them in so that they, they were forced to look. And that's what I was forced to do. I was forced to look and see. I have a lot of photographs of people walking by the [01:35:00] homeless and not looking.

And that was very disturbing. So the thing about the charity that I was involved in, uh, John Billingsley, who played Phlox on Star Trek Enterprise, and I were friends. And he told me that he was involved with a charity that, provides food for the homeless and the needy in Los Angeles. And I said, well, I have these photos.

And he looked at me and said, let's partner. So they partnered with me on my exhibit. And subsequently I became a member of the board of directors for three years and I shot their video and stills for a couple of years, but I got burned out and I, my, three years were up at the board and I, I didn't re up because I'd given everything I could and it is so daunting.

And maybe it's a character flaw, but I couldn't do it anymore. My wife also has MS and, I want to devote as much time to her and to her cause as possible. so I had to kind of narrow my, focus. but I'm still [01:36:00] incredibly empathetic for these people. And I told little stories about them , in the photos.

And the biggest lesson I learned is that they're. They're just like us, they just happen to live in a tent or sleep on a park bench and a lot of them are drug addicted, a lot of them have profound mental illness, and a lot of them simply fell through the cracks. They were lower middle class and something happened, they lost a job because of sickness and whatever else.

and then COVID struck, we couldn't do person service anymore, it all had to be takeout. So that was an incredibly trolling time for everybody, but it certainly had a huge impact , on the homeless community because a lot of the services and the ability to access care and stuff were truncated, even though this charity I work with still would bring in the UCLA mobile clinic and we had the Jules Stein Eye clinic that would come and social workers and people trying to get them there.

payments from the government and stuff, because if you don't know your social security number, it's hard to get benefits. So, [01:37:00] all of that, it became so intractable for me that I had to back away. that's kind of a downer, but, you asked, 

Cole: no, thank you. Uh, I was looking at some of the photos in the, photo exhibit, and they're so vibrant and they're, so colorful and they're full of life, which I think is exactly the, the name of the exhibit is still alive, I believe.

Still alive. Yeah. And it's, yeah, I love the name. but it's. It's showing just the intensity of that life, which is exactly what you're trying to show, so. And that they're human, 

David Livingston: they're living lives. and, there is a stillness about them that, is very heart wrenching. 

but, they're still there. They're still, they're, trying to survive, just like all of us. But their given circumstances are really, it's tough. . 

Lily: And look, I think it's clear from what we've talked about, this is a theme that resonates throughout your entire body of work as a creative person. 

The of people just trying to survive, , particularly on Deep Space Nine, people who aren't at the top of the power structure, [01:38:00] who are traumatized, who, you know, yep, have mental illness or have, issues within their family or 

David Livingston: Look what happened with Bashir.

do you know what happens to Totally. I mean, what a, issue to put on yourself that, you are damaged in the opposite way. You're damaged because your parents could not accept you. As you were, and they took the risk of improving you. But there's something about it that is wrong, and yet it's so right.

So that's deep space nine. It can be right and wrong in the same instance. 

Cole: You can love and hate. that was another episode you directed. Dr. Bashir, I presume. 

David Livingston: Yeah, and it was, It was one of the lesser episodes, but what the topic was and, and the emotion in it, the mother doesn't say anything through the whole thing until she comes up and confesses that she's really the one that drove the whole change to genetically modify him [01:39:00] so he was, Smart.

 that scene where she comes up and tells him is the best scene episode, in my opinion, and wonderfully written. And the actress, who played that part is not an actor, she's a college professor. And she had done community theater and she came in, I think it was one shot I did, she came in and nailed it.

was blown away. Here's an amateur, go back and look at that scene. You're going, whoa, this man's straight. How did I find 

Cole: her? 

David Livingston: I don't remember the casting. got to believe she came in and read because I can't believe we would cast that kind of pivotal character without reading her.

So we must have seen her, but I have no recollection, but she also had a scene to play. And 

Cole: if you're 

David Livingston: an on the page you have, what's inside, go for it. she was just brilliant. It's a heart rending confession to your son [01:40:00] that you didn't accept him for who he was and you changed him for what you considered his benefit.

If that's not, if that's not Deep Space Nine in a, in a nutshell, then nothing is. Honestly. 

Lily: Devastating. yeah, I think I want to say, Just thank you so much, David, for these incredibly high stakes of the seemingly low stakes emotional stories that you managed to tell in the series.

David Livingston: Well, you don't know what a pleasure it is to speak to people who look at the shows through a critical eye. And not as a goofy science fiction show, which when you talk to people, you get typecast. I was typecast as a sci fi director. That's, you know, I can't do anything else. 

Cole: And 

David Livingston: I accepted that.

Okay. But to have people who have critical thinking about the subject matter and appreciate the dramatic presentation is unbelievably gratifying. And I do this as an ego boost because I love [01:41:00] hearing the acceptance and the community that you and your ilk are. so thank you.

Cole: Well You know what? just for the record, to prove that we're not, this is not an exercise in flattery.

We're not just flattering you because next season we will be discussing rivals. and I will be honest about my opinion of it. 

David Livingston: Well, it won't be any worse than mine. and then there's Majel's show. What was it called? The Muse. Muse rivals rivals. The Muse is the worst, is the worst thing that I ever had to work on. And the reason is, it was a writer's conceit. I'm a, I'm a writer going to write an episode of television about how hard it is to be a writer and what it's like.

What could be more boring and insidiously Empty. Yeah. it was indulgent. Self indulgent And they forced that on me. When I read it, I went, I'm [01:42:00] doomed. Do I have to? It was terrific too. and I love May Joel and and she did a great job, but still, Matril and Odo, oh god, oh, well.

Cole: You know what, I bet, when Lily and I get to it, we will dig under the surface and find some beautiful kernels of human truth in it, and I can't wait, so. Good, email me when you 

David Livingston: find them. 

Cole: Yeah, well heck, this has been so much fun, talking with you has been so much fun.

we would love to back to tell us more about some of these upcoming episodes. It's been a true delight. 

David Livingston: Well, you guys are great. So, thank you for the invitation. And I got a big kick out of it. So thank you both. And you want me back, I'd be, uh, I'd be privileged cause, you guys you know, your stuff and, it's greatly appreciated to hear your, your thoughts. So thank you. 

Lily: thank you. Well, we definitely, 

we definitely want you back.

So we'll stay in touch. 

David Livingston: how do I say goodbye?

Lily: we usually just say bye! 

Cole: Yeah. 

David Livingston: okay, bye! 

Cole: Thank you. [01:43:00] Bye.