DAVID LIVINGSTON: Exclusive Interview (Part 1)

If you watched any Star Trek in the 80s, 90s, or 2000s, you've seen David Livingston's name countless times on the bottom of your TV screen. Working behind the scenes from the very first episode of The Next Generation, he quickly graduated to the role of producer for all seven seasons of The Next Generation and began directing in that series' fourth season, starting with The Mind's Eye.

He would go on to become the most prolific director in Star Trek history, with 62 episodes to his name across The Next Generation, DS9, Voyager, and Enterprise. The list of episodes he has directed reads like a rundown of some of Star Trek's greatest moments: we're talking Voyager's Scorpion, Equinox,  Future's End, and Deadlock; Deep Space Nine's The Visitor, The Die Is Cast, and You Are Cordially Invited; Enterprise's Regeneration...the list goes on.

We ostensibly invited David to the show to discuss two of the episodes he directed in Season 1 (The Nagus and The Storyteller), but it turned into a freewheeling conversation on everything from classic cinema (from westerns to film noir to dystopian sci-fi), to the all-time favorite scenes David directed, to the quiet rebellion he led as a producer on The Next Generation to try to make the show less perfect and more interesting.

We had the pleasure of speaking with him for two hours, and we can't bring ourselves to cut any of it. So we're posting the first half of our discussion now, and we'll be posting the second half next week. Enjoy!

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Transcript

David Livingston interview: Part 1

[00:00:00] 

Lily: hey, Cole. Oh, hey, Lily. What have you been up to lately?

You, uh, done anything interesting? 

Cole: Ah, you know, just same old, same old routine, Oh, there was this thing I did a few days ago, I interviewed most prolific director in all of Star Trek history, So that I did that. 

Lily: Oh my god, yes, a two hour interview with David Livingston.

Uh, yeah, I was there. 

Cole: The one and only, oh yeah, you were there. I'm going to be honest. I kind of didn't notice you, in the midst of all brilliance that he was dropping left and right. 

Lily: fair enough, me too, 

I only had eyes for David and I usually only have eyes for you. So,

Cole: wasn't it honestly one of The most incredible conversations you've had. 

Lily: I feel like we traversed the world of film and literature and ideas, 

Cole: not only is he one of the most gracious and open and thoughtful people I've had the pleasure of meeting, but he's also a massive film nerd and.

We went to everything from film noir to westerns to German expressionism. 

Lily: Yeah, it was a ride. 

Cole: I think you put it best, it felt like we were [00:01:00] back film class in college. 

Lily: I definitely felt like a starry eyed student just lapping up everything David had to say, and desperately hoping that I could him with my comments.

So, uh, if that's the vibe you're getting when you hear this interview, correct. And as a plus side, I, had front row seats to, middle school Cole, just absolutely peeing his pants with excitement there was so many times that David referenced some obscure part of an episode he directed and you knew exactly what he was talking about 

Cole: Uh, I think the opposite also happened. I think I referenced an obscure scene and David knew exactly what I was talking about. 

Lily: Yeah, you too. It really was meant to be. Um, and I was also there. Although, you and David did have a little spat at one stage. Are we 

Cole: I got in a fight with David Livingston about Odo's characterization 

Lily: to 

Cole: you stepped in as mediator and like a brilliant diplomat convinced us that we were both right. So thank you for that.

Lily: you [00:02:00] were both right. 

And, uh, David and I get to talk about Yentl, so, 

Highlight of my life, maybe. I don't 

Lily: I just feel like he has such a particular vision and was a visionary for the way Deep Space Nine, looks and feels, and he claims he's not instrumental in that, but it's very clear that he was 

Cole: we ended up talking an hour longer than any of us had expected to. which is why we've decided to leave this brilliant discussion, basically as is, nearly unedited. and split the interview into two different episodes because we want the listeners to also get to experience the unedited joy of speaking to this man who, had a huge impact on making Star Trek what 

Lily: you can be us in that interview and be the starry eyed student, while he humbly denies his brilliance. 

So just, don't be surprised if cut off the podcast in the middle of him saying something fascinating but deal with it because part two is coming soon. 

Lily: Yeah, you're welcome. 

All right. So here it is. We present part one of our interview with [00:03:00] David Livingston. everyone. I'm Lily Rossen. And 

Cole: I'm Cole Paulson. 

Lily: And welcome to Deep Space Wine, our podcast that attempts to recap and decode every episode of Deep Space Nine, the series that has been called the forgotten stepchild of the Star Trek universe.

But today it's not just Cole and I sharing our opinions over a bottle of wine. We're podcast. 

Cole: We are thrilled to have a Star Trek legend and the director of the most recent episode we discuss on our podcast, the storyteller here with us. Let me see if my introduction can do him justice. If you watched any Star Trek in the 80s, 90s, or 2000s, you've seen his name countless times on the bottom of your TV screen.

Working behind the scenes from the very first episode of The Next Generation, he quickly graduated to the role of producer for all seven seasons of The Next Generation and began directing in that series fourth [00:04:00] season, starting with The Mind's Eye. he would go on to become the most prolific director in Star Trek history, with 62 episodes to his name across The Next Generation, DS9, Voyager, and Enterprise.

But sure, maybe you're thinking you're not so impressed by quantity, more quality. So let me assure you, the list of episodes he has directed reads like a list of some of Star Trek's greatest moments. We're talking Voyager, Scorpion, Equinox, Future's End, Deep Space Nine's The Visitor, You Are Cordially Invited, Enterprise's Regeneration.

This man has a Federation starship and a Starfleet admiral named after him. And if you're still not impressed, he is also the namesake of Captain Picard's pet lionfish. David Livingston, welcome to the podcast. 

David Livingston: Uh, thank you. as for being a legend, that's only in my own mind. Ours too. Agree to disagree.

Well. Agree to 

Cole: disagree. 

 Thank you so much, David. This is a real treat for us. , 

David Livingston: i I'm thrilled to be [00:05:00] invited. David. It is so gratifying to know that, so many generations after 30 years ago have, found something resonant in the Star Trek shows. And I am so grateful to have been a part of it, for some reason I've been ruminating and, looking at, my past life on Star Trek, and I've been looking at a lot of the, and listening to a lot of the blogs and I was very impressed with yours.

That's why I wanted to reach out. Also because you gave me good reviews, which is, which is all I'm really looking for. I just want, 

Cole: I just want praise. Thank the stars that we liked the Negus. you know. 

David Livingston: That's true

Cole: Good for you. 

Lily: Yeah. Thanks so much for coming on the show. 

David Livingston: Again, thank you for having me. You don't have to keep thanking me. my wife pestered me for years. She said, why don't you do this stuff? And for the past A couple of years I've now done a couple of conventions and, it's so gratifying to feel the energy and the, optimism of the fans.

And it all is simply reflective of this one man's [00:06:00] vision of what humanity was capable of. I'm about dystopic science fiction. Blade Runner is one of my favorite films. Gene Roddenberry was different. He said, mankind is going to make it okay. And, that's what every script, hopefully at their bottom line, the premise was about that, that man is going to be.

able to successfully navigate whatever issues are thrown at, at them. 

Lily: That's so interesting. So kudos to Gene. Yeah, we've sort of discussed this and we'll talk about the dystopian thing later, but the reason that we love Deep Space Nine is that it's sort of a move away from that.

 that. 

David Livingston: Um, it's my favorite show of the four that I got to direct. Because isn't cookie cutter everything's wrapped up so neatly at the end and stuff. And the main thing is, it's the character interaction. These people are all trapped and forced to live together and They hate and love each other at the same time.

And that's what makes the drama [00:07:00] so fascinating. Um, did a show called The Dya's Cast, you haven't gotten there yet. Oh, I love 

Cole: that episode. 

David Livingston: Oh, so you've seen it. Yeah. I can't wait. Yeah, it's, crazy because Garak tortures Odo. And Garak ends up being the one that really gets tortured emotionally and psychologically.

Lily: it's 

David Livingston: those dynamics, that made it all happen. And it's all about writers. Episodic television is a writer's medium. At least it was back in the nineties and, the early two thousands. episodic directors are hired guns. basically we don't do any, we get to participate in casting.

But do you want me to talk? 

Cole: This is great. You're already, jumping all these questions we wanna ask you.

Lily: No, but I'm on the edge of my seat. Yeah, 

Cole: I know. 

Lily: eating it up. 

Cole: I have so much to say about the Dias cast Can I just say, I have to disagree with you before we get into it about TV being a writer's medium. Yes, but you just made me realize that the Dias cast has my favorite. scene in all of Deep Space Nine in the way it's [00:08:00] directed. It's that final scene entirely with a mirror and the power of that quiet scene with Odo and Garak. Garak forced to look at himself in the mirror with the shadow of Odo behind him is so beautifully directed.

It turns a beautiful script into an amazing scene. So I, I disagree with you. In the hands of a good director, Television can become something extraordinary, not to flatter you. 

David Livingston: Cole, you have exquisite taste. of all, and this is this is the absolute truth of all the 62 episodes I directed. That's my favorite scene because it, I remember being at the production meeting and ask, cause when I read the scene, I saw it already. it, it was in my head. And at the production meeting, I said to the set, decorator, I need a full length, I think they're called Shambhala Mirrors.

And he said, okay, we'll get you one of those. I, we can do that. Because I, I already saw it. It was so cool. and to me it [00:09:00] reflected, the job of the episodic director, or any director, is to visualize the emotional and dramatic content of whatever you're doing. Every shot should help to advance the story and to have a point of view, and also hopefully have an emotional content to it.

And that particular shot, I think, fulfills that. , all those requirements. So thank you for the kudos. Uh, I happen to agree with you. 

Cole: That scene is chef's kiss. Thank you. Gosh, I guess we need to actually kick this off don't worry. 

Lily: Well, can I, can I do a little bit of the softball copy that we prepared, if you don't mind?

so, uh, In our Storyteller episode of the podcast, Cole and I discussed the topic of icebreakers, because that sort of comes up in the Storyteller episode at the very beginning. And we talked about icebreakers and how they function socially and how debatably, whether they're good or bad, I was definitely against them and Cole was for them, 

Cole: Love icebreakers.

Lily: came, I came [00:10:00] up with an icebreaker and we both answered it, on the episode and we were hoping that you could answer it too, if you're. game 

David Livingston: okay. 

Lily: Go ahead. All right. It's a little silly. if you were a bird, 

what bird would you be? And why? 

David Livingston: Um, 

well, I'd probably be an eagle. remember, I was doing a film up in the Aleutian islands. And I remember all of these American bald eagles circling, uh, off the Pacific. And that beauty and the majesty. And yet, the absolute ruthlessness that they had when they dove into the water to pick up a salmon and journey off.

Now, that's their innate nature, but from a human standpoint, I love that. I love the majesty. And the purpose of their existence and the beauty that they did it, the beauty of the, it's really, it's a beauty of the kill. And yet it's, but it's nature and it's dramatic [00:11:00] and it's life and death.

Every scene should be. or you have to pretend in your mind that it's life and death. If you don't, then why are you doing it and why are you showing it to an audience? Otherwise it's a problem. And, and an eagle looking for its prey and swooping down and getting it. That's literally life and death.

So eagle. 

Lily: Yeah. 

David Livingston: What did you think I would say? What would you say? That's 

Lily: an amazing answer. 

Cole: it's fair, have to say what we said now. Gosh, I'm little embarrassed after that answer. I said that I'm a penguin because I naturally sort of waddle. I love, to go to Bargainy with my friends and I look great in a tuxedo

That that's the main reason. 

David Livingston: Forget the other two reasons. . Exactly. 

Lily: Um, I, I, questioned, the validity of being a flightless bird, every answer is valid. but, um, uh, strange. , no, come on, don't 

David Livingston: pick on Cole. 

Lily: Geez, . Have you listened to the podcast? I do Pick on Cole, all the time. [00:12:00] And. also that sort of segues nicely into my answer, which is I am a crow.

I'm a raven. 

David Livingston: Okay. Well, ravens are predatory. 

Lily: Yes, they are. 

Cole: Yes, they are. 

David Livingston: Yeah. Um, 

That's a good one. I like that. 

And I'm also a great fan of Edgar Allan Poe, Quote the Raven, Evermore. So, uh, okay. I'm, I'm all into Poe. And as you know, if I like Blade Runner, I've been going back and every day I watch one, black and white film noir. movie, because I am so taken with that period in Hollywood and Raymond Chandler and Mickey Spillane and the drama of that and Fritz Lang and, yeah, it's, 

Lily: I feel like I'm dying to ask you, a question. I read somewhere that you, drove Fritz Lang in your car after hearing him speak, 

David Livingston: true. 

was crazy. I was in graduate school and this guy comes in with a patch over his eye and we're having a graduate seminar, half a dozen people maybe. And at the end of it, whoever was with him or whatever said, Fritz needs a ride home.

And I [00:13:00] got Fritz Lang sat next to me in my car and I got to drive him home. It was, Here's a guy that invent almost single handedly invented German expressionism when he did M with Peter Lorre and it's one of the most frightening, horrifying, just disgusting movies because the guy is a pedophile.

it's His handling of it is so, Brutal and artistic in the same vein, so, I was thrilled to be with him, he did Metropolis, didn't he do Metropolis as well? Metropolis, yeah. Yeah, mean, you could never have done that in the Hollywood system, they would say. No, 

Cole: remember watching M a film class college and being struck by, yes, horrifying, but it also has so much heart. This horrific main character, it's actually quite empathetic to him, to, Peter Lorre's character?

So, read some other interviews where you say you like to go into these different genres, but still find the heart and soul in it, so I think got a little Fritz Lang in you in finding the horror and [00:14:00] the heart at once. 

David Livingston: what makes it so fascinating. you know the talent of Mr.

Ripley? have now made a series called Ripley and the character of Ripley is reprehensible. He's the worst. Passable human being. And when I was watching it, I told my wife, I said, I know the Ripley story. I hate this guy right now. I don't want to watch this, but it is so beautiful in its black and white photography that I said, okay, I'm going to stay with it.

And it's wonderfully directed beautifully shot. And the actor is amazing. At the end, I didn't want him to get caught for all the nefarious things he did. And that's exactly what you're talking about. That's the trick and the goal in drama is to make the most reprehensible people accessible and sympathetic and have empathy in some bizarre, twisted way.

How much more satisfying Is that for an audience to be taken along on that journey? You've got to, if you're not ripping the audience around and playing mind games and doing all kinds of stuff with [00:15:00] them, why, why be in show business, make widgets, drama is not widgets. 

Lily: Yeah, and I think, I want to circle back to what you were saying about the eagle, and about, I guess , the high stakes feeling of, the smaller stories creating, a high stakes feeling.

drama within like a small emotional story rather than creating something with huge stakes with, you know, things blowing up like, I think maybe some of the later Star Trek series the more modern ones. This is sort of the space they go to sort of like the Marvel films or whatever.

I think that, 

David Livingston: sorry to interrupt, but your whole comment about stakes is so cool. The best piece of writing that I was ever able to direct was an episode called The Visitor. And the stakes in it were that this guy's son, loses his father through a subspace anomaly and all kinds of stuff and ends up at the end of the episode killing himself to regain his father.

I mean personal [00:16:00] stakes, but the ultimate in terms of personal stakes sacrificing your life for somebody else, your father. hadn't seen the show in 20 or 30 years. And, I, I was involved in a thing called Trek Talks, which was, a Zoom thing we did for the Hollywood Shoot Coalition. And one of the panels was on The Visitor.

So I said, well, I better watch it again, since we're going to talk about it. And I'm not one to cry easily, but there was, there was a bit of a tear there. It really, because I had the detachment, I can watch it. I didn't remember any of the process, because when you're in the middle of something, You, you don't really know.

Does anybody really know whether the audience is gonna respond or whether you're gonna respond? And I did. And I was so grateful to have had the opportunity for that particular piece of writing. That's why I say it's a writer's medium. Because you're only as good as a script , and your job is to make sure you can, , tell it to, be as faithful to the [00:17:00] script and to make it good. 

Lily: You're so humble for a bald eagle, an American eagle, David. No, no, Lily, 

David Livingston: I have a huge ego. But my problem was My ego is bigger than my talent. that's why I was an episodic director. But that's okay. Hey, I have no regrets. Uh, Rick Berman, you guys know who Rick Berman is? Yes. Okay. 

He is my mentor. He gave me the opportunity when others didn't necessarily want to hire me again. He said, certain people don't like you, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. But I like him. And that's, that's all that mattered. As long as he liked me, I kept working. And I'm eternally grateful for him giving me that opportunity. he gets a lot of bad press. And unwarranted. he, created. Three television shows and took the mantle of the next generation at the Christmas break in season one. Now Rick by nature is not, he writes, but he also hired really [00:18:00] good writers to be the showrunners and stuff.

and he created, he created Deep Space Nine, Voyager, and Enterprise. and And yeah, maybe Enterprise Enterprise should have, uh, unfortunately, well, it cost me three years of residuals, so I'm a little personally embittered by the fact that it didn't go longer. And Manny Cotto, I don't know if you know who that is, he came in at the, in the third and fourth season to try and resurrect the show, but.

It just didn't get the ratings and the fans did not, or the audience didn't take to the show, which was kind of a shame. But, that's water under the proverbial bridge. I got on a tangent, sorry. 

but it was a great run it ended up being about 17 years of my life and, it was an extraordinary experience. I got to do stuff , on the various series that I couldn't have done anywhere else in television during that period of time, because we did so many different kinds of, of drama and comedy and tragedy and wars and all that stuff.

Lily: we love it. We, we I mean obviously we started a podcast about it so [00:19:00] clearly we love it. 

David Livingston: Yeah 

Lily: Colin, I'm looking through the list of your directing credits and we were debating, which episode was our favorite and I think for a lot of fans it's The Visitor, which is just an incredible episode, but my pick was DS9's Rules of Acquisition, because I am a sucker for anything Yentl related. 

David Livingston: that's absolutely right on and it also, the first Ferengi episode I got to do was Zanagas, which I prefer to the Rules of Acquisition, but the Rules of Acquisition is much deeper, emotional because, you know, what it does in terms of women's role in society. And the Ferengis are able to magnify the situation that women were in, in the 90s, still, unfortunately, to the point where women, uh, in the house, women could only appear naked in the Ferengi culture.

And the stories about a woman who comes in and pretends to be a male, and, does her yentl, routine. And it resonates for you [00:20:00] in, in terms of it being a feminist track. it also with homosexuality. Homosexuality was something that we, I know the writers talked about it a lot, but they, this is the 90s and the early 2000s.

They didn't know what to do with it, but they snuck it in. Yes. And in the rules of acquisition. the woman who pretends to be a man has a conversation with another, I'll call her woman, who has also been a man and a woman and a man and a woman. And she says to, to the wom She thinks is a man.

She says, oh, you're in love with Quark, who's another man. And she says, yeah, I am. So she's saying, yeah, I recognize that you have homosexual love for another male Ferengi. The twist is, when she says, I'm not a man, I'm a woman. And the, the other person goes, what? You're a woman? So the surprise was not that he's homosexual, [00:21:00] but that she's a woman.

And I think that that's my favorite moment is when this character named Dax goes, I thought said it all. 

Lily: It's so ahead of the time. It's so ahead of the time, but it's also so steeped in classical literature, Shakespearean literature. the cross dressing, the, sort of gender dysphoria, all these things that have been playing out for centuries and centuries.

And now we're in this present moment. And it's become something. that people want to talk about and it's highly contentious, but it's been here forever. 

David Livingston: Your observations are spot on. mentioned Shakespeare, uh, Armand Shimmerman is a, Shakespeare, aficionado.

Teacher, isn't he? Yeah, he's taught it. he does a lot of Shakespeare himself. there's this thing called the Oregon Shakespeare Festival that he goes to and I've been to as well, , and he's always bringing up Shakespearean allusions when you talk to him and stuff. , it's quite an education.

He's very, very well versed, in Shakespeare. 

Cole: Lily [00:22:00] and I go hard for Shakespeare. I think we mentioned Shakespeare at least once an episode on our podcast. And it's very easy with Star Trek. So easy with Star 

David Livingston: Trek. Yeah, he was a good writer. 

Cole: Yeah, turns out, yeah. He was alright. he was alright.

 As far as my favorite episode, I have to give a shout out to the killing game on Voyager when the crew are all captured by the Hirogen and made to believe they're French resistance fighters in World War II. That honestly, I can credit that episode with turning me into a little middle school history buff. 

David Livingston: That's great! 

Cole: it has Klingons charging into battle against Nazis. I mean, what's not to love? Loved it. 

David Livingston: My second favorite scene that I ever shot was the opening in the French Café of that episode where Jeri Ryan, who plays Seven of Nine, she doesn't know her real identity. and she's a torch singer from the 40s during World War II in a French, uh, bistro or cafe.

And I did this, she starts on a piano, goes up to her face, she comes out, [00:23:00] sings, the camera goes around and shows the whole cafe and, and it also then reveals Kate Mulgrew as, uh, Nick, basically from Casablanca. Um, and I love, When I read that script, I died and went to heaven. Again, I love to break the mold and get off like the damn, excuse my French, the damn French, uh, off the ship and, and do something.

Crazy. We, we did World War II. I got to shoot on the back lot at, European Street at Universal and, riding all around and shooting phasers and, or rifles rather, and, and, uh, was a kick. So I'm, I'm with you 

Cole: It's so much fun 

David Livingston: For those episodes that I, really, feel I did a great job on, they were the ones that I liked.

scripts, they grabbed me and I said, man, felt affinity for them. you get something that's, uh, but in 62 episodes, look, sometimes we were doing 24, maybe more episodes a season. It's hard for the writers to come up [00:24:00] something every, every seven days or eight days we started a new show.

So it's extraordinary how they were able to keep the level of writing so high, but at certain times you're going to hit a clunker. directed and I directed my fair share of them.  you'll get to them.

Lily: Look, I think we, we don't hold back on the podcast because we love Star Trek, we love Deep Space Nine.

But I think as you say, when it's creating sheer quantity that had to be created. Yeah, you're right. There are a few clunkers and we, we're not afraid to talk about it, 

David Livingston: but they aired. Yes. And people watched them. So. 

Lily: And there's, there's also still something to love in them, we find, with those episodes.

We have a lot of fun watching them. That's a very good 

David Livingston: point because, when you don't have a script that talks to you, you have to invent something. Mm Every script. has to have a strong premise. If it doesn't have a strong premise, in your own mind you have to create one, because otherwise you have nothing to hang your hat on.

You have to have a point of view, you have to [00:25:00] know where you're going with the material, and even if it's an artifice, if you don't do that, it's going to come out as a muddle. So point of view and premise, very key. 

Cole: I'm just holding back from going on all these tangents about Casablanca. 

David Livingston: I've been watching a lot of Bogart lately. Yeah. And, Casablanca's great performance, but he's done better.

 If you look at a lot of the noir stuff. but Casablanca, come on that that's another crazy thing when they were making Casablanca. They didn't have a clue That would just make it another what Warner Brothers. Yeah, it was a b movie. Yeah. Yeah and yet Something about it, you know made it so special And again, when you're in the middle of it, you don't know, and you can't predict what an audience is going to say or do. there's no touchstone. and that's the magic about our business where you think, Oh, wow, that was fabulous. I did. I'm a genius. And [00:26:00] So, ask Michael Cimino in Heaven's Gate. you know, I'm a genius. I can do no wrong. Do you know Heaven's Gate, the film? it's a period Western, and he almost broke the studios back by going millions and millions of dollars over, because he had done The Sorcerer and other big movies and stuff, , and he failed miserably.

Lily: yeah, the difference between objectivity and subjectivity. 

David Livingston: No, absolutely. 

Lily: But But before I go too far on that, the podcast, we have, we have the deep space, and then we also have the wine. So I feel like we've gotten into the deep space, but I'll just talk about the wine for a little bit, if that's okay.

David Livingston: Sure. 

Lily: so we understand, that you're not a drinker, David, but that's correct. So for this episode, I picked a really interesting non alcoholic wine alternative. 

David Livingston: Oh, thank you. 

Lily: Yes. So, going alcohol free is actually an increasingly popular choice for all kinds of reasons. so as a result, there's so much non alcoholic wine being made these days.

I actually had like a huge selection to pick from. just from my local bottle shop. and I've gone with something from a producer called [00:27:00] Non, which is an Australian company started by a guy named Aaron Trotman. the one I've picked is the Non 5, which is lemon, marmalade, and hibiscus sparkling.

David Livingston: Whoa, that sounds nice. cool. All right. I have to write that down. Non five.

Lily: Yeah. Okay. and you can definitely get it in America. I had a look. so I'll just give you the flavor profile notes . from it's tart native citrus, floral body, menthol aroma, and finish, unlike traditional non alcoholic wines, which I think are, denatured.

So It's the wine and then they remove the alcohol by heating it by various processes. this product is made with verjus, which is the unfermented juice of unripened grapes. It's a really cool product. I did a bunch of research, 

 What they're doing is creating, a balancing active flavor built from the ground up with key notes of floral, tannin, salinity, and acidity. And that's a copy from their website. so essentially mirroring the experience of drinking wine in terms of body and structure, Which are the things you're looking for when you're drinking wine.

 and as a chef, this is all very interesting to me. So I'm super excited to [00:28:00] try it. 

David Livingston: Well, you're super, uh, intelligent about it. That's incredible. I just learned so much more about wine than I ever knew. so thank you for that. Um, I'm vegan. Yes. And, my understanding, because sometimes, you know, when I say I don't drink, sometimes I might, I used to have glass of wine and stuff, with my wife or whatever.

 but I found out that in the process of making wine, It's decanted through a filter that has beef product in it. So technically, wine is not vegan. Is that correct or is that a canard? 

Lily: Um 

is correct. However, because you are not alone in being vegan, there are, quite a lot of vegans in the world who like to drink wine. 

David Livingston: lot of wackos. Yeah.

Lily: no, no, no, it's, a great choice. there's a ton of vegan wine being produced, so. Oh, okay. Yeah. So I can definitely there's so much vegan wine. I can have a look and maybe send that through to you, some of the options. All right,

David Livingston: good. I'll become a drinker. It's good.

Lily: I mean, look, I don't want to encourage you. 

Cole: When we get David on [00:29:00] again, we'll have some vegan wine with him. 

David Livingston: I love that idea. Thank you. 

Is there an Australian toast? 

Lily: Cheers. they probably say cheers c word, because that's the Australian thing to say. What was the last part? Cheers what? You call someone the c word as a term of endearment. 

David Livingston: Oh, well that, that sounds very Aussie to me. 

Lily: well I did actually come up with a toast for, this podcast, 

David Livingston: Is 

Lily: So cheers to storytelling. 

David Livingston: Thank you. Cheers to storytelling. That's a great toast. 

Yeah. , how fun is it to tell a story? And to me Motion pictures are the literature of the 20th and 21st century. Uh, I, I do try to read a lot, mostly, uh, lurid, murder mysteries. But, movies are , the thing that has, so profoundly affected my life. And, I'm so grateful to have been born.

when I was. I was born in the first half of the 20th century. How many people can say that? Not as many as [00:30:00] yesterday. And I, I have been exposed to this incredible history of movies and I'm a motion picture history aficionado. And I love movies. They're, and, television as well.

And all, all of this stuff that we can go into other people's lives and other places and experience. the drama of other people as well and see how it reflects on us. 

Cole: Well, think you're in good company. There are three film buffs on this call and I think we're going to have a lot of fun, getting into it, I think without further ado, let's dive into talking about Deep Space Nine and some of these episodes you directed. 

David Livingston: Okay, before we do though, 

Cole: I 

David Livingston: know that Lily is a chef and.

I have great respect for chefs. My thing is when I make something, I want it to last. People eat your art. That's very unsatisfying to me. I I could not do that. see, I, I can't, I don't wanna do that. You can't 

Lily: imagine. Yeah. 

David Livingston: but I have good respect for that talent and artistry because There's an art to cooking, [00:31:00] so I admire that profession, but Cole, you're welcome, but Cole, what's your occupation? 

Cole: mine is so much less sexy than, I'm a sustainability, consultant. So I work with, companies to reduce their carbon emissions and waste. 

David Livingston: That is so much more significant than anything I have ever done.

in terms of effect. No, I mean, how could you denigrate or minimize what you do? That's crazy. I don't want you to ever say, I'm telling you, don't ever say that again about yourself because what you're doing is for all of humanity. I mean, come on. I'm shocked. Well, I'm shocked that you would have that, No, thank you. And I, 

Cole: I, I think it's less sexy than being a filmmaker or a chef, but I also think it takes a village. I think it takes I mean, what I do is I get into boardrooms with companies and I say, Hey, you actually need to start listening to this, but I think it also takes storytellers.

to make people pay attention. And I think, [00:32:00] I mean, movies movies and TV that make us realize we need to care about these things are what plants the seed in, say, a CEO's head. And then I go in and I say, Hey, remember that movie? Don't look up. it's real and it's about climate change. And so let's do something about it.

So I think it's, it's that complementarity between what you're doing as a storyteller And then we serve delicious food to get them to the tables. 

Lily: people gotta eat. 

David Livingston: I No, that, that's fabulous I was on the board of directors of a, foods, distribution, charity here in Hollywood for three years.

and I'm very in tune. with that need, uh, we have a terrible homeless, uh, problem. Uh, unhoused is the, the politically correct term, but here in Hollywood, it's, it's, horrible. and it's intractable, but some people are trying to address it, but you're right. symbiotic between the arts and, and what you're actually physically trying to do.

So, yeah, and art has. it has responsibility. some art is great and will manifest what you want to [00:33:00] do, but then there's art like Leni Riefenstahl and Triumph of the Will. You guys know that film. It is the most awe inspiring polemic. ever created on film. 

Cole: It looks amazing.

David Livingston: And is amazing because she was a brilliant filmmaker, but she was making it for Nazis and for Hitler.

Yeah. How horrible and reprehensible, and she had to take, spent the rest of her life, Trying to rehabilitate herself, but she kind of failed because, because at her core, she was a Nazi collaborator using her, art to advance that heinous political thought. So, as artists we have a responsibility and, I always hoped as an artist that I would come out on the better side as Gene Roddenberry would want me to.

Cole: I, I think you just proved my point about the power of a story in the hands of a good director. Because the content of the Triumph of the Will, . , the content is not great. It's Nazi [00:34:00] propaganda. But in the hands of a good director, it's this opus. So I think it shows that a director has a lot to say about how a story comes across.

And I'm so glad that you have lent your considerable skills to telling stories about an optimistic future. So for that. 

David Livingston: I just have to tell one thing about Triumph of the Will. The opening shot is a, an airplane flying through the clouds with this dramatic orchestral music and the plane descends out of the clouds and comes to earth.

God coming to see his people and Adolf Hitler's on the plane. So start with that image and it only gets worse. It should be Required viewing for anybody who is subject to propaganda to see the profound effect that it can have. Everybody should see it, and it's so apparent today in what we are experiencing in our country.

everything is bifurcated, [00:35:00] everything is, We're all in silos and everybody gets their news from a certain area where they're being told this is, this is truth. Truth is in the eye of the beholder and there's a lot of truth out there that's not true and absolutely not true, and there's a tremendous part of our population that, that doesn't want That doesn't say that.

They, they accept, I'm going to call it what it is, they accept the lie. And that's very problematic for any people's, especially for a democracy. 

Lily: Yeah. And we can talk about that. I'm going to get off my 

David Livingston: soapbox now. Let's talk about Star Trek. 

Lily: No, no, because, we'll talk about that idea with the Dalrock as well.

But Cole, I think you, , I think maybe you want to start with, a question about DS9. 

Cole: Yeah, so let's, set a scene about Deep Space Nine. we agree with you. It's our favorite Star Trek 2. For, for reasons dear to us. You've already mentioned some reasons that you like it so much. In this podcast where we're starting from episode one, we're realizing just how What a radical departure it was from the next [00:36:00] generation.

It started out immediately telling darker stories with more ambiguous conclusions. Our heroes have to live with the consequences of their actions. A lot of these characters have serious baggage. They've got trauma. They've got skeletons in their closet. And it really feels like this blend of different genres.

It's sci fi, but it's also western, and later it becomes a war epic. so if you can recall way back to the early days of starting out this new series, how deliberate were some of those choices, and were you nervous about whether the show could find an audience? Being so daringly different?

David Livingston: I was only nervous about how we could afford it because it was, my understanding, it was the most expensive pilot made to that point. Um, and, we were able to amortize the cost of, of the sets, over the seven seasons. So that lowered the cost per episode, but we had to absorb that cost, into all the episodes because I was, the, uh, supervising producer, starting on the pilot.

[00:37:00] And, that was my challenge. I was not involved in the writing process at all. but Rick did allow me to go to casting and participate in looking at drawings and things like that, of the sets. and I had a, a pretty close, collaboration with Herman Zimmerman, the, uh, art department, the production designer.

So again, I wasn't involved in the script process, but I was involved in all the physical production because it was my job to, budget it. And then. have the different departments create it. 

Cole: Well, the, the look of it, yes, the stories are darker, but the look of it is darker too. they have to rebuild this alien space station was in ruins when they showed up.

lot of the action takes place in this seedy bar where nefarious dealings are happening left and right. so the look of it is darker too. I mean, the next generation, everyone's sitting in pink comfy chairs, talking to, ambassadors. And suddenly, Deep Space Nine is grimy, so I do think You lent a lot to that.

And I, I think it was really risky. Um, 

David Livingston: you, you talk about the next generation. Gene's, view of humanity was that we're [00:38:00] all perfect human beings. And therefore, the sets all had to be perfect and pristine and, and, no graphics or anything, nothing on the walls. and it had to be bright and, and in your face.

Well, it was the worst. And after, well, it was, it was terrible. And in the second season, unfortunately, I had to replace the director of photography various reasons. And, I hired Marvin Rush and I had seen his reel and really liked what he was doing with lighting and the camera and stuff. So when he came in, I said to him, Marvin, this show , was lit by a flamethrower.

We gotta change this and, but we can't do it overnight because Rick will catch on.  so over the course of the first season, he started to lower the light. he would come to me, we would have a [00:39:00] parking lot meeting almost every single night after shooting. And he would say, I'm going to be fired, David.

They're going to, they're going to find out what I'm doing this year. I'm going to say it's too dark. And I said, Marvin, you keep doing exactly what you're doing. Don't change anything. Cut to Deep Space Nine. And we had then got to the point where we now had a show where we could do that on. And, Marvin embraced it and it shows, and we would do crossover episodes on Deep Space Nine.

where you couldn't even see anything happening. I love that. I think if you have to have the, if you only show the audience the absolute necessary element, that keeps them engaged. we're going to keep watching. you have it all in your face, it's boring. And the lighting on the next generation was horribly boring.

And then there's the Mike, do you guys know who Michael Kudo was? Michael Kuda was the graphic designer for the show, with he and his wife, and he was the designer, and he insinuated his graphics into the sets [00:40:00] eventually. So by the time we got to enterprise, it was nothing but monitors with live graphics and computer generated graphics.

And, think of how richer the next generation would have been if we had that. Also the technology increased greatly so that, instead of just shooting on a CRT, we had computer monitors that could run at 24 P that looked. Really? And you didn't get roll and all that other kind of stuff.

So between the lighting and the ability to put graphics into the sets. And to not be dealing with clean lines and all that other GARP stuff that we had on The Next Generation. No, but I'm, I'm being serious. I hated it. we had to have a, a note on the call sheet. Every call sheet for The Next Generation says, Don't touch or lean against the sets because they had suede and, and this metallic stuff on it that if you touched it, it would get nasty.

So, oh man. 

Cole: yeah, there's just so much more room for creativity on Deep Space Nine. Speaking of lighting, [00:41:00] to go back to The Visitor. I just rewatched the episode two nights ago and there's this beautiful scene. Where Kira is comforting Jake, he's lost his father, they're up on a upper pylon, and there's no lights on, and they're against the background of the stars, and it's just their two silhouettes, and that framing and that lighting makes the scene, just so mournful, and, It draws out despair, and I just, you can't have that on the next generation, and I, I'm so glad you were able to be creative like that on Deep Space Nine.

Lily: And it, it kind of makes sense. to hear that your film was aficionado. Yes. To hear this perspective. I'm 

David Livingston: glad you brought up that shot, because it's my favorite shot of the episode. And it's not just the setting, it's also the actors. Serac was friggin amazing, and Nana was.

And I get criticized sometimes for not doing coverage and stuff. coverage is when you cut from master, which I never would shoot, into coverage, which is close ups or medium shots or whatever. That [00:42:00] scene cried for a two shot, where there's no cutting, and you just see these two people there talking about, loss.

And, and the lighting, brought up Marvin Rush. Marvin Rush left Deep Space Nine at that point to go over to Voyager, and Jonathan West was the cinematographer on that episode, and he was brilliant, what he did on that scene was magnificent. the stuff in the half light and stuff, I look at that scene and I say, that's really good work.

for all of us. And I'm actually very proud of that, of that scene for all of, of all of that. And it's so gratifying and ego boosting to have, somebody who has, uh, the discernment to recognize that and to, tell me about it. So thank you. 

Cole: Oh, thank you. Truly. I obviously love this show.

So thank you. 

Lily: guess we've talked a little bit about your personal tastes and how they lean more towards dystopian sci [00:43:00] fi. So the rosy optimism of Star Trek, to paraphrase you, isn't necessarily a cup of tea.

so with DS9, the themes it explores are definitely less about the possibilities of science and technology, and often more about the pain and hardships of the human experience. like in The Visitor, but less about privileging the perspective of Starfleet and the Federation, and it's more interested in the resourcefulness of the people who are lower or completely outside of the various power structures.

 Trying to do the hard work and trying to survive. 

Lily: guess it's clear that was a conscious decision for you as a director and a producer. But maybe you can tell us why that appealed to you. 

David Livingston: episodic television directors, at least in the 90s and the early 2000s, were, hired guns and even though I was a producer on the show, and then I eventually went freelance, but even when I was a producer on the show, I didn't get to pick the episode that I directed.

And we were given the material. So I had to look at that particular piece of material and say, how do I approach this as [00:44:00] a filmmaker to bring out the intention and the, the drama of the piece? So while I would have loved to have been, be able to pick the scripts, cause I would have turned down some for sure.

Yeah. But, that's the nature of the. the episodic television director, I don't know, did I talk about how, an episodic director doesn't participate in casting? Excuse me. They participate in casting, but the final decision on who to hire as guest cast is made by the producers.

You don't participate in the writing of the script. You have a, would always insist on a tone meeting where at least I could go in and talk to the writers about what they meant and answer some of my questions that I had when I wasn't sure of what was happening. in terms of editorial. I got to do a director's cut, but after that it goes to the producers.

There's no final cut for an episode of television director. And I made it my policy, which is kind of snobby, but I didn't look at a lot of my shows on the air because I didn't want to be disturbed [00:45:00] and now that I look at some of those episodes, I go, Did I do that? I said, I can't believe I did that.

So I'm going to say I didn't do that. so we don't, we don't get final cut and we don't participate in any of the areas of post production, uh, which, which is, music scoring or the spotting session for sound effects the mix. And then the other key element is. When you go into an episodic show, less on Star Trek because there were different kinds of episodes, but when you go into an episodic show, the look of that show has been established well before you got there.

the, the filmic style, the lighting style, all of the, the physical elements, they're all already there. so you don't have any say over that. Now in Star Trek, we had enough varied episodes that, we could change all, all the paradigms. but I would always try to infuse myself into as much of the process as I could.

Oh, the other thing I wanted to say is you don't do a lot of directing. I [00:46:00] didn't direct the actors very much. The, the permanent cast knows more about their characters. Then anybody else, um, they know they're given circumstance and if they don't, they're failing as an actor. An actor has to come into a scene and know they're given circumstances.

what's their intention and where are they going with it? It's not my job to tell them that every time that's part of the preparation of the actor. And I was reticent many times to even talk to the permanent cast. And the guest cast, casting is 90 percent of directing.

If you cast the right person, you don't have to direct them. You saw it in the room when they came in and auditioned, if they do that on the floor the stage or on location, you're fine. So, I would talk to the actors sometimes as encouragement and stuff. I remember, or I read this somewhere, I don't even know if I did this. about Wallace Shawn having the studio executive scope. Did you, did you comment on that or? 

Cole: I don't think we've heard this story. Wallace [00:47:00] Shawn played Zek, of course, the guy in Negus. 

David Livingston: Yeah, Wallace Shawn is an unbelievable actor, playwright, bon vivant, intellectual. I mean, he's a really smart guy, but he's the goofiest person I've ever met in my life.

And he has the silliest voice. It's like talking to a Klingon! Yes! Um, so, the story that I've heard is that studio execs come down to the set and they go up to Wallace and they see one of the scenes where he's doing Grand Nega Sec and they said, Wallace, you understand that Star, that Deep Space Nine is not a comedy.

So, what I read, and I have to accept it as true, Wallace came up to me and asked me, he said, David, these guys just came in and told me this isn't a comedy. I said, Wallace, you keep doing exactly what you're doing. Don't change anything. If that's what I said, that's the best piece of directing that I ever [00:48:00] did.

Cause he is, he's magic. Can you just clarify something? 

Cole: I read somewhere that, voice Wallace Shawn uses for Zack is really funny and silly, and he did a great voice. But Lily and I just kind of think, he sounds like that on other, I mean, we just thought it was Wallace Shawn's voice.

I just that was his voice. 

David Livingston: were casting, trying to figure out who to get for Zack, and Rick Berman, I'm sitting next to him, and all of a sudden he comes up and he says, What about Wallachon? and it was genius, because Wallachon is Zach. to answer your question. He heightened it. He heightened what his voice is.

But that's not, fake. That's really Walsh. Yeah. Great. Yeah. Oh my gosh. He was an absolute delight. I took the liberty of going, to his, spotting session where he does ADR and stuff. which is where they replaced some of the dialogue that got screwed up in, production. And I said, well, I'm not allowed to participate in your ADR, 

and I said, I know [00:49:00] you recognize me. But I came here to see you, because I have never seen him out of the Ferengi makeup. I never saw him. He didn't come in and read or anything. I have never seen him as, a human. So I said, I came here to see you. That was the first time. And, and the shocking thing was, he kind of looked like a Ferengi. 

Cole: He was made for that part. Oh yeah, he really was brilliant. 

Lily: Hey Cole. 

Cole: What's up Lily? 

Lily: did you used to like that thing in Star Trek where, it would cut halfway through the storyline and say to be continued?

Cole: Oh my gosh, I loved it. It was epic. That was like them telling you this story is big. 

Lily: Yeah, we'll buckle up, folks, because that's what's about to happen. 

Cole: All right, everyone, we hate to interrupt a great conversation, but We will continue our conversation with David Livingston next week. we're going to discuss the Negus and the Storyteller, but also behind the scenes stories about the casting of Avery Brooks and René Auberginois, David's [00:50:00] all time favorite relationships on the show, plus ours too 

Cole: We spill some behind the scenes tea from The Next Generation and Voyager 2.

so you're not going to want to miss it. So

Lily: we'll see you next week. 

Cole: to be continued. 

Lily: Part two, coming soon.