Keiko's Mom's 100th: DAX (1.07)

Who are we with and without our memories? And are we always sentenced to inherit intergenerational trauma? It’s debate club hour on DS9, and Lily and Cole are going deep. We also propose an in-universe explanation for why Jadzia acts like such a wet sock in season one! (Warning: excessive references to 90s courtroom dramedy Ally McBeal.) 

🍷 Wine pairing: Chablis "Terroir de Courgis" from Patrick Piuze 

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Chapters

• 0:00 Intro: The burden of memory
• 9:55 Wine pairing
• 16:29 Episode recap
• 1:10:15 Final thoughts (and Fashion Watch!)

Transcript

1-07 Dax

[00:00:00] 

Lily: It's a debate! It's best way to solve any problem is classic Star Trek.

Cole: The poor judge on the other hand is not thrilled about this technicality.

Hates debates. She just wanted to get home and watch her shows. She's the 

Lily: arbiter of debates and she's like, another fucking debate. Hey everybody, I'm Cole Paulson. 

Cole: And I'm Lily Rossen. And welcome back to Deep Space Wine, a podcast that attempts to recap and decode every episode of Deep Space Nine, the forgotten stepchild of the Star Trek universe. Each episode , we will share a bottle of wine, wind down, and then wind ourselves up again with our strong opinions about DS9.

Because in our social experience, there is nothing people love more than when someone talks at length about Star Trek or wine Dax. I mean, especially about Dax. Yeah, I mean, I know I love it. We're about to 

Lily: talk a lot about Dax. [00:01:00] Yeah the title of this episode. 

Cole: For instance. Yeah. , 

Did you like this one?

I did, 

Lily: I mean, it. Had a pretty classic Star Trek vibe to it, you know, there's sort of a tribunal or a court case, , where they're , debating the ethics, the morality of the situation, the semantics. 

Cole: Star Trek loves courtroom drama. It's one of its favorite genres to dip into.

And I love courtroom drama. Do you? Yeah! Like which ones? Um, 

Lily: well I think we talked about this, but I do watch a lot of Laura Nodder and Laura Nodder Great. , and most of the other ones. I don't know, what are the other ones? Boston Legal. Suits with Meghan Markle. Oh no, I hated suits. Oh god, everyone was so smart.

Cole: Ally McBeal. , 

Lily: I did. That's so funny. Because I will be talking about Ally McBeal later. What? Which brings me to my other point. Um, I was re listening to some of the episodes and I like how our podcast, , has a completely. Contextless feel to it. We don't really [00:02:00] talk about what's happening in the present.

We don't talk about our lives in the present. all our references are seriously dated. Like 30 years old. We could be recording this at any point in time over the past 30 years. 

Cole: So what you're saying is you and I have a timeless quality. 

Lily: Totally. So, just like that, Ally McBeal, like, what a contemporary 

Cole: reference.

 I mean, I know when I record, the first thing on my mind is... 

will this be relevant to listeners a decade from now? 20, 30, 40, 50 years? 

Lily: Me too. I mean, this is our legacy. 

Cole: When I die, people will be listening to Deep Space Wine. Put it on my 

Lily: tombstone. 

Cole: Okay, I'm not much of a courtroom drama fan, but I have always liked the Star Trek ones. There's the one where Data has to defend his personhood, on Next Generation. His sentience. There's the one on Strange New Worlds when, Number One is on trial for using, genetic engineering.

Oh, that was great, yeah. Mark, 

Lily: you [00:03:00] just gave away our context. 

Cole: I mean, it's post Strange New Worlds. fine. I'm 

Lily: just saying.

laughs

Cole: Um, I realized that all of these like really good courtroom episodes, are often about, uh, personhood and, individuality. And this one's actually no different, what makes a person, Star Trek loves dipping into these themes and really asking the questions literally 

In front of the judge.

 What about That one where Worf is on trial for the sins of his father? Ooh, 

Lily: yeah. He's got a similar, similar themes. 

Cole: Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. AlSo, yes, this episode is called Dax. Uh, I subtitled it in my mind Trills colon the Wikipedia page colon the movie.

Great. Yeah. But 

Lily: finally, some in depth information about how trills work. 

Cole: Yeah. The writers have said that they actually used this episode for their own sake to understand trills and trill society because they still hadn't figured it out. And so they're just [00:04:00] using this as almost like a writing tool.

Great. And it's, it's a primer for all of us. Sort of has that feeling. I know. NOt in a bad way. It does kind of feel like you're reading the series Bible about trills sometimes. Yeah. And that's fine because we all had to learn at some point. 

Lily: God knows I want to know more about Jadzia 

Cole: Dax. I bet you do. Ah, she's hot. I thought this was also maybe the best episode about Sisko and Dax's friendship that we get in the series. In the whole series. It's best friends club that has spanned lifetimes.

It's beautiful. Yeah. So I'm glad we have this one to really understand. 

Lily: And sort of arguably, Yeah. Terry Farrell? Terry Farrell. tHe actress who plays Jadzia Dax. That's right, listeners, I know 

Cole: someone's name.

It's like she watched the opening 

Lily: credits once. And actually looked at the names. I can read. Uh, yeah, sort of arguably maybe they don't actually give her enough to 

Cole: do. Okay, in this episode or in the series? Well, in this episode. Okay, that's actually maybe my biggest... [00:05:00] Grievance with it. Yeah. It is literally titled Dax and yet again seven episodes in she's so passive even in her own episode They give her so little to do but watch from the sidelines.

Lily: I thought the same thing, but then I have some 

Cole: counter arguments Okay, guess I do too. Maybe we'll revisit this in the end. Um, 

Lily: in the great debate that is this episode Let life imitate art Imitate life. Imitate art. I 

Cole: haven't even started drinking yet. What? I don't 

Lily: know. Look, I've got some bits about how this episode is a debate club.

But anyway, we can get into that later. 

Cole: Yeah. 

 Love it. Well then, 

Two 

Cole: things I wanted us to ponder as we recapped it. Um, what does the episode teach us about Jadzia Dax?

 Like what do we learn about the main character of the show, Jadzia, in this show that's

Otherwise ...

 quite didactic about trills. And then the second question is, what does it teach us, if anything, about ourselves? Human viewers. [00:06:00] Oh, I 

Lily: love these questions in Star Trek.

It's what I'm here for. Great, well then... That and a really good sleep at 

Cole: night. Yeah, but this one did not put us to sleep. No. Not even once. 

Lily: So this episode, I watched it a couple of times. Did some... cogitating and it actually kept bringing me back to this novel that I read years and years ago by Nicole Kraus called Man Walks Into a Room. Have you read it?

I haven't heard of it. Yeah, it's great. I mean, she's a brilliant writer and this was her. First novel, which is quite something. but it just really, , it's one of those books that stayed in my brain since I read it, you know, 15 

Cole: years ago, whatever.

, how long ago was it written? 

Lily: I think it was 2002. Okay. 2001, 2002. Hmm. So it's a novel that ponders the idea of, who are we with and without our memories. 

Cole: Yeah, okay. 

Lily: So I'll just give you a little rundown of the plot so it sort of makes sense.

Please. , so the main character, he's, a charismatic late thirties college professor, he's married, and [00:07:00] he is found wandering the desert. And he's completely lost his memory. It turns out he has brain tumour, which they remove. And he regains his memories up until the age of 12. But nothing after that, he sort of regains the ability to do adult things.

I think he can drive a car and, you know, sort of do those kinds of, activities, but, the rest of his life is a complete mystery to him. Including. The person he's married to, who's now an inscrutable stranger. It's a really, it's a really great novel, I mean, she's got this great grasp of, metaphor and, a beautiful writing style. 

Cole: So it's sort similar quality to 51st Dates. Is that, am I getting the right references? I mean, no, 

Lily: iT's not an Adam Sandler rom com, it's a, I'd say it's a pretty good literary fiction. 

Cole: So a book version of 51st Dates? That, 

Lily: no, let me go on the record and say, Nicole Krauss, no.

But it also explores some sci fi concepts such as, He, goes and becomes part of this, [00:08:00] experiment, where he has someone else's memory implanted in him. Oh. There's this group of scientists, who are trying to work out, collectivism, and how that could shape things in, sort of post atomic times.

Warfare? Oh yeah, and then he also has an uncle who has Alzheimer's. So he's lost his memory, but he has this sort of elderly uncle with Alzheimer's. So yeah, it talks about, like, what is feeling and what is emotion with memory, without memory.

Because the character feels a lot of freedom without his memory, but his uncle obviously feels trapped without having his memory. So it looks at empathy and how shared memories might, lead to close personal connections. so I, I guess, look, this is a tangent, but it really got me thinking about, memories, and our sort of parents and grandparents memories and like generational trauma and, 

Cole: I love that question of if enrich our life or if they sort of shackle us with baggage [00:09:00] and bad stuff, right? Do we get joy from memories or sorrow or both? Yeah. 

Lily: And who are we with and without them? Yeah. Do we... Do we have a self without 

Cole: our memories? Are we the sum of our experiences?

Or are we just a brilliant young woman with an exobiology degree? Various degrees. And ten other degrees Jadzia has.

that I've forgotten. 

 Okay, I can't wait to read it. It's great! I think, I was thinking about themes of this episode and, gender, age... Uh, statutory limits of crimes but I hadn't really named memory and that is maybe what this is all centrally about.

 Yeah. I'm glad you raised that. That's what it made me think of. Yeah. 

Lily: Amazing. You know, I'm just the snarky lady 

Cole: sitting next to you. You're so much more than that to me, Lily. Oh. 

Lily: I'm also the lady who brought the wine. 

Cole: Ooh. Does that mean we can drink some wine now? Yeah. 

Lily: It does. All right. What you got for us.

So tonight. I think in the last episode I was talking about how [00:10:00] parochial I become with my Australian wines. 

Cole: Mm hmm. With no apologies for it. 

Lily: So I wanted to go French. Okay! Yay! So tonight I've picked a 2020, Chablis. It's from a producer called Patrick Pouisse. oh Gosh, I should also mention.

Sorry about French pronunciation, 

Cole: We're getting some nasty letters from our French fan base. 

Lily: From my old French head chef, he'll be shaking his head. Never listening to this, also. so yeah, it's a shibli. It's a shibli terroir de courgette. So, I think we talked about terroir? 

Cole: Uh, that word is not familiar 

Lily: to me.

So it's the soil, the ground. Okay. In which the vines are grown. Yep., And it really, you know, it affects the wine making process. Yep. So Shiley is, technically a burgundy, but it's from the Shiley region.

Mm-Hmm. Of burgundy. Mm-Hmm. . It has a few different levels, , like a lot of the, [00:11:00] , different Burgundy styles. , so there's Petit Sheli, Sheli. , Premiere Crew, Grand Crew. , and so tonight we're drinking shibli. Which is a Chardonnay grape. Which is one of my favorite things to drink, actually. I know it sounds like I drink like a lot of funky Australian wines, but mainly this is what I drink in my free time.

Sometimes you're a shardy girl. I'm always a shardy girl. Love a shabs. ... , so yeah, this producer is really cool. Uh, they call him like the bad boy of Shibley. They, I don't know if anyone really calls him that. I saw it somewhere online today. but yeah, I have a really cool quote from him. If anyone is interested in this call anyone, um, 

Cole: all 

Lily: right.

So this is what he has to say. Basically he, he just makes a lot of Shibley and he really champions, Chablis rather than the Premiere or Grand or the other styles of Burgundy. Uh, this is him. The only thing truly original in the world of wine is the underlying terroir, and I have nothing else interesting to add.

Anyone can [00:12:00] copy anyone else's techniques. So what else is there to make great wine? I believe the answer is simple, terroir. I want to work only with the fruit from old vines, and even then, only old vines that are planted exclusively within the original boundaries of Chablis. If I respect these things, it will be almost impossible to make bad wine. 

So that's sort of his, you know, Okay, it comes down to the ground. That's his, that's his statement. Yeah, , so in Koji, which is where this is grown, , it's from a single vineyard on the left bank with clay topsoil on top of , Kimmeridgian limestone bedrock, , which is a kind of, Kimmeridgian limestone is Well, I think it's originally an English type of soil from one of those areas with all the crustacean shells, like, you know, look, don't ask me 

Cole: about geology, but some era of That's it. 

Lily: , and it, yeah, it made this like incredible soil. , and it's, , decomposed clay fossilized oyster shells. , and it goes down through Champagne and into Chibli. , and [00:13:00] actually Chibli has a lot in common with Champagne. It's pretty close to Champagne. but yeah, so that's the sort of very nerdy stuff about the terroir, but this is sort of what he does.

Cole: You know, I was, You,, you took me on a journey through the dirt of France and I was so long for the 

Lily: ride. Lumism dirt. Especially when it's all flinty and oyster y. , yeah, and that really, , informs. what the, what the wine is like. , earthy? No, uh,, it's very flinty, , and mineral and austere and, um Saline.

, but obviously it is still a Chardonnay grape, so you get the stone fruit and the , citrus fruits, , and things like that, but you sort of get this more at the front. 

. I really nerded out on this. Because I love drinking these wines.

Cole: Well then, shibly try it? Yeah!

Yes. Shit. 

Lily: Yeah, shall I , pour your glass? 

Cole: Yes, please. [00:14:00] You know, I'll edit it to make it sound like that was your instant comeback to my play. Please don't, because, 

Lily: you know, I'm just, I'm, I'm just like you, you 

Cole: know? I mean, I've been sitting on that shibly , shibly triad thing for like four minutes , so. 

Lily: Oh, look, it's what people expect of us. Oh, should we cheers?

Cheers.

Cole: That is delicious. That's good, isn't it? Oh my gosh. Yeah. Uh, what made you think to pair it with this episode? 

Lily: look, I was thinking about the character of Dax. Mmm. , especially Dax in this episode and, and previous episodes. , she does have a touch of austerity in this episode. Mmm. maybe not flinty mineral. Mainly I was thinking about what I like to drink. And it's, uh, again, to break the... the fourth wall of context. It's very hot in Perth. And this, I could drink this all day, every day on a 

Cole: hot night. You've ruined the timelessness. They'll know we filmed this in summertime in Perth.

Um,, well, , it has a fresh[00:15:00] new vibrancy to it and yet it comes from centuries of soil. So perhaps there's a old and new dichotomy happening. I also 

Lily: did like a little bit of reading about grafting and wine. . So, I don't know if you know this, but, , I think bit over 100 years ago, there was a, there was a horrible blight and , it destroyed most of the world's, , old vines.

, So a lot of what we drink now, uh,, clones, um,, grafted onto old vines, , and. Yes, that got me thinking about Trill as well. 

Cole: Right, so most of the wine we drink is just, is cloned, right? , the, the grapes didn't survive the blight. Yeah. How did we, how did we clone them?

Lily: , I think basically what it is, they took the surviving grapes and grafted them to older vines that weren't, Ruined. There are some, Appalachians where that definitely didn't happen and I think they're quite particular about how they don't do that and they're old finds. , but yeah, I think, I think a lot of, but 

Cole: many grapes, the, the [00:16:00] memories of older grapes have been grafted on to younger clones.

For new lives of their own. That's, look, that's enough for me. Thank you. You've done it. Thanks. Perfect pairing. I just wanted to drink 

Lily: some chai. But 

Cole: I've done it. It's great on a hot summer's night. Cheers. Cheers.

Oh my gosh, that's good. It's so good. Yeah, I needed that. Yeah. Oh, should we get into it? 

Lily: Let's start this. , 

Cole: alright, Dax. okay, so as per Commander Sisko's opening station log, this episode actually pivots entirely around the monumental event of Keiko's mother turning 100, and her and O'Brien's odyssey to get to Earth in time for the ceremony. 

Lily: Keiko's mother is 100? How old 

Cole: is Keiko? What is 

Lily: happening? This is crazy. 

Cole: Oh my gosh, I hadn't even thought of that. What? 

Lily: Like, right off the bat. This is batshit. 

Cole: [00:17:00] Because the actress has to be like, 30 years old for Keiko. saying. I completely didn't even think of that. And it was her mother's 100th, right?

100th. 

Lily: I went back and listened to it again.

Cole: Look, 300 years from now 

Menopause . 

might be a thing of the past. Oh yeah. 

Lily: Egg freezing. They just wait until... 70s to have a 

Cole: child. Egg freezing gets more and more sophisticated, and if you're not ready until you're 70, then that's when you make that baby. Do it. 

Lily: Do it, Keiko's 

Cole: mom. Yeah. 

Keiko's actually 60, but they have amazing anti aging creams in the 24th century?

Lily: mean, maybe. Yeah, like I suppose if you are saying like menopause isn't a thing. 

Cole: Yeah. I think they just figured out how to look damned good. We, we meet a 100 year old in this episode, and she is looking hale and hearty.

Lily: I don't want to... I don't want to spoil anything, but did they run out of ages for women over the age of 30? They're like, Oh, they're all just a hundred. 

Cole: Okay. Actually, , I was going to bring this [00:18:00] up later, but it becoming so much clearer to me.

This episode was written by DC Fontana, who is a veteran writer of the original Star Trek. She wrote a lot of episodes from the original run in the sixties. And they brought her back to write this when she was in her late 50s herself. And I think you have, uh, a woman, what's the, I don't want to get in trouble, what's the right way of saying this?

A woman in her prime, so, uh, creating a lot of awesome female characters in their prime. , so maybe it's not a coincidence that she writes about a lot of 100 year old women.

Lily: Uh, look, it's something that immediately jumped out to me about this episode, but sure. Arbitrary age 

Cole: 100.

I mean, thank you DC Fontana. We need more visibility for women over 50. 

Lily: Women over 99. Gotta see more of them. 

Cole: Anyways, the episode is not about... Keiko's mom's 100th. , it's very clear that the actor, Colm Meaney is just away filming something else, and so they create this very [00:19:00] specific out of office message for him.

But it's kind of 

Lily: got a bit of a snarky tone to it. Does it? Yeah, because Sisko's like, he's got a snarky bit about how the rest of them are trying to keep the station up and running. Thanks for just, like, jetting off. Yeah. 

Cole: Hope it was worth it, Miles. Yeah, wow. I'm so glad that we haven't even gotten past the first sentence of the episode.

Moving right along, , down in the replimat, , A resident sex pest, Dr. Bashir, is pestering Dax while she's trying to do some repair work because of Chief's absence. and this week in Coworker Sexual Harassment, Dax says that drinking another Ractogena would keep her up all night, to which Dr. Bashir says, I can think of better ways of keeping you up.

Blech. , like a legend, Dax just completely ignores him. Yeah, is she 

Lily: not hearing it or is she pretending to not hear it? She's 

Cole: pretending to not hear it. Why does she even spend time with him? I'm guessing he came and sat with her, right? She's actually trying to do work and he's just sipping his [00:20:00] Ractigeno like a, like a skis.

, when Jedzia announces it's time to turn in, Bashir offers to escort her to her quarters and she politely but firmly says that's not necessary and takes her leave. And like a 24th century Robin Thicke, Bashir hates these blurred lines because he knows that Jadzia really meant yes and decides to stalk her to her quarters.

What the? Like, not even the 90s, this was remotely acceptable stuff. 

Lily: He says, not necessary, Julian, but not forbidden either. Like, she said no, bro. 

Cole: Yeah, it's, I guess it's not against the law for me to stalk my coworker to her quarters when she's about to go to bed. Ugh. Oh, 

Lily: wait, can I just quickly , derail this once more , because I feel like I, um, I, I, uh, 

Cole: Oh gosh. You 

Lily: Uh, look, I did a disservice to this podcast, , in the last episode where I didn't know. What kind of flower was on the [00:21:00] table? And I didn't look into the symbolism. Okay, 

Cole: tell me you pulled through.

Lily: I did. Yes. Alright, so from what I can see The flowers on the table during the sex pest scene is some kind of lupin. Okay, and that symbolizes imagination, admiration, and overall happiness. 

Cole: Okay, so do we think that's for Bashir or Dax? 

Lily: I think The imagination and admiration are definitely on Bashir's side.

Cole: He's imagining a lot, 

Lily: but I feel like Jadzia does sort of exude overall happiness in her day to day life. 

Cole: Yeah. 

Lily: Batting 

Cole: away sex pests. and I think, what have we learned about Jadzia six episodes in besides that she is incredibly competent and sort of serene? Anything? 

Lily: Look, she's got a bit of a twinkle, she's got a cheeky twinkle.

Yep. 

Cole: She's got a wry grin. I don't know, what else? Not much. Yeah, so hopefully we'll finally get under, under the skin of Jadzia this episode. Past Bashir's [00:22:00] imagination. Bleh. 

But look out! On the way to her quarters, Dax is ambushed by some nefarious figures who've been trailing her. And thank goodness Bashir was stalking her too, so he can come to her rescue. Oh wait, no. When he tries to... He throws a punch at one of the kidnappers and actually just manages to fall right down after him.

It's almost like he punches himself. Did you? I had to rewind and watch yeah, it was great. He takes a swing and then just falls on his face. 

Lily: I mean, the writers hate him as much as we hate him. So 

Cole: at least we're aligned on that. I think so. , and then in maybe the most dated moment of the whole episode, Bashir manages to recover, gets back up, gets a chance to hit another...

attacker. But oh no, he's paralyzed with shock when he realizes that the alien is female. Oh, benevolent sexism. There it is. Poor Bashir's mind is blown that a woman can kidnap people. Oh no. So of course the woman takes the opportunity to deck him in the face three times. Rightly so. , and knocks him out and kidnappers drag Jadzia off.[00:23:00] 

Lily: What do you think of these aliens? 

Cole: Uh, they've got, , they've got appealing temple makeup. They've 

Lily: sort of got a ridgy ear, like side of the head thing. , it's not very flattering to me, but it looks 

Cole: aerodynamic. No, it's not, it's not flattering, but I feel like the makeup artist put in a little more time.

He did some homework 

Lily: yeah, and it sort of emphasizes big ear 

Cole: holes. It makes them look very smart. Makes him look smart but sort of vulnerable. Brainy and vulnerable. Yeah. Lily, you just psychoanalyzed the makeup and that was beautiful. That's what I'm here 

Lily: for. Um, about that scene, I think I wrote, Worf would never.

Just saying. 

Cole: Spoiler. It's a good thing he shows up on the station in some respects. 

Lily: You know, you know me, I used to be a no Worf Jadzia shipper, but now I think I'm all 

Cole: about it. I think it's something we actually switched sides about. Because I'm really skeptical about [00:24:00] Jadzia and Worf now.

Yeah, let's not jump the gun. We are jumping four seasons ahead. We'll get there when we get 

Lily: there. Back to the episode. Back to episode 

Cole: seven. Okay, so after the opening credits Bashir comes to and hails Ops, , and I'm guessing because this episode is mostly a huge talk shop. They give us this full next act of a big chase between Ops and the kidnappers, trying to stop them from getting away.

, there's lots of sealed airlocks and force fields and override codes and tractor beams, but our guys win and nab the villain's ship in a tractor beam and drag it back to the station. 

Lily: Okay. I have some thoughts. Hit me. , first off Sisko acts with some very quick efficiency and authority. He's good.

And you know me, I find efficiency extremely attractive. Uh oh. It's like my number one 

Cole: green flag. Uh oh, look out Benjamin. So Hey. Hey girl, hey. I see you. Hey Commander. , 

Lily: I also want to talk about the Wacko gloves that the Captain Aliens have on. 

Cole: you notice those? I [00:25:00] don't think I noticed their Wacko gloves.

All right. Hang on, let me just go 

my gosh. They have like 

Lily: skeleton bones they kind of look like, virtual reality gloves from the 80s, which I think is kind of cool. It's kind of fun. 

Cole: It looks like bad laser tag, Skeletor kind of. I like it. Matching boots!

It's around their boots and ankles too. Ooh! Matching boots! 

Lily: all right. What else have I got? 

 PTSD is flaring up again because she is acting her socks off. She really is. , 

Cole: yeah, when Kira gets them with her tractor beam, she says, gotcha! Yeah. And is just pleased as 

Lily: punch. It's so good. And the first of many gotcha moments in this episode. 

Cole: Is smarmy the word? 

Lily: She's really pleased with herself.

She's smarmy and they all smarmy and please themselves in their gotcha moments. 

Cole: Yeah, I think this scene kind of bummed me out. It's so much tech. It's, it's a chase scene, but no one's actually running. They're just hitting buttons. , but look, budget and 

Lily: And it's pretty classic, , first season DS9 I'm coming to learn.

Technobabble, nothing much happening. , 

Cole: well, down to the airlock. [00:26:00] Odo and Sisko, wait to apprehend these guys. , the leader steps out and introduces himself as Elon Tandro from Klaestron 4. Sisko accuses him, rightly, of kidnapping and assault, but Tandro calls it an extradition procedure. , turns out he's got a valid warrant for Dax's arrest, and says the fugitive Dax is charged with treason and the murder of his dad.

She killed my daddy. And Dax's face, upon hearing this, is an enigmatic cocktail of emotions. Is that realization? Fear? Guilt? 

Lily: Yeah. Um, and then everyone looks at each other, and it's another one of those great soap opera moments. Commercial break. I think I said Dax looks guilty and inscrutable.

So, we're on the same 

Cole: page. Yeah,, good work, Terri. So we learned that the warrant is for the death of General Tandro 30 years ago when the Dax Symbiont was in Curzon Dax, the prior host. , Curzon had been on Klaestron IV as a Federation mediator during their civil war. , and Sisko, who knew Curzon very well as a close friend and [00:27:00] mentor, says Curzon certainly might have been cavalier, a little rough around the edges, but he's no murderer 

Lily: he says, , he was not, and he's got really beautiful diction. , and Odo's like, how about a trader? 

Cole: beautiful diction. Are you coming around to the Avery Brooks school of acting? 

Lily: I don't know when he's just going to be really efficient like that. 

Cole: You know, it's amazing you and I are friends because I'm so inefficient.

I guess this is why you and I have this beautiful platonic relationship. It's why 

Lily: we've never slept together. 

Cole: Yeah, that checks out. so, Sisko goes to Dax's quarters to tell her that he's going to do everything he can. Yeah, no, go ahead. Everything he can. 

Are you okay? You're like, quivering. 

Cole: I'm really excited 

Lily: about Dax's quarters, okay? Oh yeah, I knew you would be! I want to talk about interior 

Cole: design!

Me too! Okay, let's just pause the recap. We're in Jadzia's quarters, Lily, tell me everything. Hang on 

Lily: a sec, [00:28:00] 

Cole: I was like, Oh, this might be under an hour. No, 

Lily: oh, look at it. All right. So there's just like so many cool objects. There's like dials everywhere. And Oh, what's that? I see a fuchsia orchid. What do orchids symbolize? All right. So orchids, um, mainly love. Beauty and Fertility. 

Cole: Ooh. 

Oh my 

gosh. 

I have, uh, fun trivia about, the items on her shelf. Yes! On the top of her shelf 

Lily: is...

Sorry, that yes was like the yes of a 12 year old boy. Wow! 

Cole: I mean, come on. Who are we regressing to when we record this? 

Lily: My Inner 12 year old boy. 

Cole: Okay, speaking of 

Fertility?, 

on the top shelf in Jadzia's quarters is the... Fertility Idol from Raiders of the Lost Ark. Yes! And they brought it out of the prop department.

Oh my god, I love nerds. I love it. 

To be clear, I did not spot that myself. 

Cole: I did read it on the 

Lily: [00:29:00] internet. Any, anything 

Cole: else about the object? I mean, I thought it was just a lot of, uh, astrolabs and compasses because they're like, she's a scientist. Yeah, but it's like, 

Lily: they're all placed artfully, the sort of beautiful brass things.

I... She's got an eye for... 

Cole: So I personally just find it a bit mishmash. bit hodgepodge. Look, 

Lily: we have different aesthetic tastes. One of those other reasons we haven't slept together.

Cole: You have an appealing hodgepodge. Hers is just grey shelves with random scientific instruments on them. I agree to disagree. All right, all right. We've had these quarters. Check. We've done Sisko shows up and he is going to do everything he can to help clear her name, but she says she's not asking for his help and she is tight lipped about the whole situation, which understandably annoys Sisko.

I mean, it's a death penalty for either of these offenses. , And he says, Hey, we've been close friends for 20 years, let me in. And it's, it's a little heartbreaking. Jadzia says, Well, [00:30:00] I'm Jadzia Dax now, and you were friends with Curzon 

Lily: Dax. So how strong is the link between them from host to host? What is the real 

Cole: connection?

Yeah, , and you can almost see Benjamin just Shrink into his little petulant 20 something self from when he knew Curzon. Full 

Lily: on regresses. Yeah, he's like... Just like me with that, yes! 

Cole: Exactly, we're all regressing. It's sort of sweet. He suddenly becomes that 20 year old Ensign and he says, but what does our friendship mean now?

Did our friendship survive? Yeah. And Jadzia is so aloof. She's like, look, I don't know. Look, she's 

Lily: gone full stoic in this episode. Yeah. Yeah, 

Cole: she has. I think it would piss me off too if someone I've known in my mind for 20 years just is not letting me in, but Jedzi have her reasons? I guess I just sympathize with Benjamin's emotions.

I do too. Oh, absolutely. Sisko is not about to give up. In his office, he tells this dude, Tanjo, that they must have been trying to kidnap Dax because DS9 is a Bajoran station, not a federation one, so they wouldn't have the extradition treaty with the [00:31:00] Bajorans.

Ooh, 

Lily: it's that spicy stuff, the politics of extradition on DS9. 

Cole: No wonder I had so much trouble getting that sentence out, it's like, this is juicy stuff. And Kira is not pleased that they were so good at almost escaping the station. , she says it annoys her. 

Lily: Um, I loved that delivery. Did you? Yeah, but also.

It kind of annoys us. 

Cole: Yeah, I kind 

Lily: of loved it too. , and also Sisko and Kira are very on the same team in this moment. And they get to have a little gotcha moment together. And I love this for them and their friendship because you actually don't see their friendship developing much. I feel like this is the first spark 

Cole: of it.

I wrote, it's nice to see Kira and Sisko enjoying working as a team. Yeah, they're loving it. Yep, So Kira says we're gonna hold our own extradition hearing. Thank you very much Do it Yeah, even the, uh, the cinematographer is capturing Sisko and Kira playing buddy buddy. Sort of playing, um, smarmy cop, less smarmy cop. 

Lily: But , even like[00:32:00] the... Blocking.

Yep. They're on the same level. Yeah, Sisko's her right hand man. He's 

Cole: usually above her. He's not towering over her for once. 

Lily: Smug smiles all around. 

Cole: can I have some wine? Beautiful 

 Okay, great. So the next question is where will this hearing be held?

Hang on, 

Lily: hold that thought. Because, just quickly. 

Cole: Oh, I know exactly what you're going to point out. Red pirate shirt. You're going to point out pirate shirt is back. RED PIRATE SHIRT IS BACK! knew you were going to see pirate boy.

The wardrobe 

Lily: department, They just keep 

Cole: rewarding me. And he's everywhere in this next few scenes. He's just walking all over the place today. Just the one 

Lily: extra they paid some money to. What's 

Cole: his story? What is Pirate Shirt's story? We'll never know. No. , meanwhile, , Odo announces to Quark that they'll need to shut down the bar to use the bar as a courtroom because, quote, there's nowhere else on the station that's suitable, which is almost certainly code for there's no more room in the budget to build a hearing set.

Sure. there's hilariously actually, , a statement from [00:33:00] Michael Piller, the producer, denying this. He says, well, the station was just in shambles a few weeks before, so maybe all the other rooms on the station are in shambles. 

Lily: I like to think it was an excuse to keep the love story between Quark and Odo going.

Like, I want more of their romcom. I want to see it. I want to see what they're up to. 

Cole: yEah, fair, but I did not love this exchange. No? I'll go badger's quark into, giving up his bar by threatening him with some, building codes. To me it was sort of police bullying I don't know.

, But 

Lily: I, feel like they're still speaking the same language. Like, Ferengi, they're not afraid of some like red tape and whatever. He's just gonna do it. And as, both of them say, business is business. 

Cole: Yeah, Odo kind of comes off like some mafia boss.

Yeah, 

Lily: but I honestly think, , that Quark sort of respects it in a way. 

Cole: I guess he does. , so after Odo secures Quark's place, , Sisko then sends Odo off to investigate the case himself on Klaestron IV, which, , Odo grudgingly agrees to do.

, I sort of got the impression that... Odo doesn't care one way or another what the outcome [00:34:00] is for Dax. He's very skeptical that she's even innocent. They have no relationship. Yeah, it's fair at this point, I suppose. But he definitely seems to have learned, uh, the Cardassian school of justice of, guilty until proven innocent.

He's like, look, it's an extradition treaty. What, what do you want me to do? Yeah. , 

Lily: you know, interpersonal skills are not his strong suit. 

Cole: Yeah. Or, believing in a person's innocence. Sure. That too. . 

Lily: There's pirate shirt boy again. There he is.

He's everywhere. Yep. , I like this scene though. It's got a bit of a Casablanca 

Cole: feel to it. That's so true. Why? 

Lily: I think it's just, the tone of these two in their interaction with each other and it is sort of the hard bitten detective being sent off mission and he doesn't give too much sense about what the outcome is.

I don't know. Odo 

Cole: is like a Sam Spade character. Yeah. Isn't he? He is. Like, you can almost picture some dame walking into his office needing help. Actually, that happens a few times in this series. Yeah, I think, I think it's intentional. Definitely. Yeah. So it is time for the hearing to begin.

And, uh, the [00:35:00] judge, or Madame Arbiter, arrives. And, I mean, Lily, thoughts on this judge? I love her. She's a 

Lily: queen. Uh, everything about her is amazing, and when I'm 100, I would love to be like this lady. 

Cole: It's in the stars. You can count on it. 

Lily: She's a hoot. 

Cole: Judge Judy in space. She is. And I would watch her show.

Lily: 

Weirdly, what I wrote down, again, one of my, super relevant contemporary references, she's like a character out of Anne of Green Gables. 

Cole: I don't even, no? I haven't 

Lily: read it. All right, another time. She's just like this really curmudgeonly older lady, wielding a whole bunch of power.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that happens in Anna 

Cole: Green Gable. one thing I love about it. She's curmudgeonly but so powerful. So powerful. And she's looking great in blue swath of dress. Cobalt 

Lily: dress. Cobalt, that's it, yes. And it includes a 

Cole: built in cape. I just got excited like a 12 year old when you identified it as cobalt.

Cobalt![00:36:00] Sick! Tell me more about 

Lily: her dress. It includes a built in cape. And it's sort of got some beautiful rushing. It, it's just great. She's a winter, it's doing things for her. 

Cole: And she's got some, uh, metal badge work on one shoulder. Yeah, she does. And 

Lily: it's, on the same side as her. Bajoran and earrings.

Mm-Hmm. 

Cole: uh, silver. Yeah. Accessorizing silver on silver Winter 

Lily: Palette. And she doesn't look a day over 98. 

Cole: Yeah. The actress is Did you recognize her from, some certain nineties tentpole films? 

Lily: Oh, okay. So I did have to Google her because I had a moment where I was like, is she in the 1980s?

Whatever version of Anna Green Gables, and that's why I'm getting that vibe. No, and I looked her up and she's in every single TV show of all time. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

Cole: She's very recognizable. Including Ally McBeal. There it is. Full circle. Oh no, I've got 

Lily: more.

Cole: that's not all the Ally we'll be hearing about. Great.[00:37:00] I mean, to me, she is... It's the 90s, Carl, you know? Ah, what a time. What a time. We're just living in the 90s, maybe. At least I had a good time in the 90s. She was the secretary from Liar Liar. She was the social worker from Mrs.

Doubtfire. Mrs. Doubtfire, yes, I did. and she's been on Next Generation. But she's, she's a legend. So she comes in and she is ready for this hearing to be open and shut. She's a hundred years old, thank you very much, and she says, I intend to be here till supper, not senility.

Can we, oh, 

Lily: great line. Can we talk about her, her gavel, which is like a weird ball? 

Cole: We can talk about it all you want. Okay. It's great. It's like a soccer ball, a metal soccer ball that she pounds. I thought it had a kind 

Lily: of ... Wood varnish to me. Oh, 

Cole: okay, but it's so 

Lily: oh, it's just they're like she's a Bajoran a hundred year old Madame Arbiter 

Cole: She's seen some things. She's lived through the occupation. have a gavel. She is not here for anyone's crap She's not banging 

Lily: a gavel like some kind of 20th century. Idiot 

It looks organic to me. Like a dinosaur egg.

Cole: homegrown. Like it [00:38:00] fell off a plant. Yeah, I love it. Like a dinosaur egg. That's good. Okay, dinosaur egg. Alright, great. Man, we thought we wouldn't have a lot to talk about in this episode. 

.

So...

Cole: It is time for the opening statements. , within seconds, the judge interrupts Tondreau to ask, If the crime is 30 years old, what took you so long? And he says that the evidence was contained in military files that were sealed until recently. Fine. , and then, when it's Sisko's turn, the judge asks him why she should deny extradition if the warrant is valid.

And Sisko says, Hey, the name on the warrant says Dax, not Jadzia. Who wasn't even born when the crime was committed. And the person charged with the crime, Curzon Dax, doesn't even exist anymore. 

Lily: So is a different host a different person? It's a debate! It's the best way to solve any problem is classic Star Trek.

Sisko is thrilled. He was probably on his high school debate team. 

Cole: I mean it's like a Oxford Union debate. Like the, the side's pro and con. It's, it's less a hearing than just a really nerdy debate. Yes. Yeah. [00:39:00] I love it. Yeah, yeah. No, it's, it's great. The poor judge on the other hand is not thrilled about this technicality.

Hates debates. She just wanted to get home and watch her shows. She's the 

Lily: arbiter of debates and she's like, another fucking debate. Just 

Cole: want to get home from my soup. What kind of TV shows do you think she watches at home? Ah, Matlock. She was on Matlock. Lots of Matlock. She was on that, so. But she says, um, it would have been easier on me if you had not raised that particular point, but the penalty for these crimes is death, and that is rather permanent.

So let's do this. She's great. 

Lily: the best. 

Cole: So, up in Sisko's office, Sisko is strategizing with his defense team. No one is particularly pleased that Jadzia barely even seems to care whether she's extradited or not. Bashir's job is to prove medically that JedZiaDex and CurzonDex are two entirely separate people.

Kira's job is to find any legal precedents saying that Trill hosts aren't responsible for their prior host actions. And 

Lily: they both, are taking issue with these things. And [00:40:00] it's like Sisko has to explain what a debate is. He's like, no, but you just have to find some evidence. I don't care if you believe it.

Do 

Cole: it, Scoobies. Do it. They are sort of like, um, hench people they're like, but what if we can't find the evidence? What if the evidence is contrary? And he's like, well then it's wrong! You find 

Lily: it! It's a debate! My God, people! 

Cole: To not help things, Odo messages from Klystron 4.

He says he's learned that the murdered general was a war hero. And that he and Curzon were supposedly best buddies. And Odo says if Curzon is indeed guilty of betraying his bestie, he would, quote, want to hang Curzon. You got this one? Whoa! I mean, Dax's defense team is really not on board.

Odo's ready to hang Curzon himself. 

Lily: Well if he did it, he's guilty and I'll... Kill him. I'll do it. 

Cole: Thanks for your vote of confidence, Odo. Hanging him up his heels himself. Yikes. 

Lily: and Sisko, he looks equal parts stressed [00:41:00] and also kind of loving this 

Cole: challenge. He's firing on all thrusters. 

Lily: He is reliving his life when he was a 12 year old boy in his debate team.

Cole: Yeah, like he's getting to be a good friend. He's getting to be a debater. He's getting to be that like 20 year old I'm just used to you acting like a 12 year old boy. So I was like, what? I was like, yes and?

Yeah, I think Sisko's, eating it up, even if he's a little exasperated that no one seems to care, including Jedzea, about if she gets off. I know! 

So down on Klystron IV, Odo pays a visit to the general's surviving widow, Anina Tandro. She's living in a swanky pad. Are we going to talk about a swanky pad? 

Lily: It's pretty swanky. There's a lot of mauve. Um. Um. 

Cole: Some sort of art deco. She's got like a jukebox fireplace thing going on.

Sure. Yep. She 

Lily: also suspiciously looks a bit like Data's mom. 

Cole: She is indeed played by Fionnula Flanagan, who also played Data's mom or mother figure. Yeah. Yes. Good 

Lily: spot. She's also in the latest [00:42:00] Hunger Games movie. 

Cole: Is she really? Which one?

What year did we record this?

Lily: You'll never know. I 

Cole: think she's a great actress. I'm glad to hear she's still getting work. She's fabulous. In this year. I love her. This year we are 

Lily: recording. She is killing it. She's like classic Hollywood. She's really compelling. 

Cole: Her dress. I got, sort of Kim Basinger in L. A. Confidential.

Yeah. Another stunning blue, robe dress. Uh, 

Lily: uh, beautiful confection. Intricate pleating. Um, it's fabulous. 

Cole: Okay, I'm gonna argue. Ah! I think there's an argument for it not being a coincidence that we have two, uh, powerful, brilliant, gray haired women in blue dresses. Oh, the writer. and even the costumer.

I think we can pick up on maybe the parallels that these two characters have. Okay, tell me more. I mean, stay tuned, my friend. Stay tuned. I love this. This is 

Lily: [00:43:00] my dream. I am living my dream. Same. 

Cole: Same. So... Twist! Anina in the beautiful blue dress tells Odo that she is certain Curzon is innocent.

He was a close family friend, she says, and her son is just obsessed with the death of a father he never knew. She says that the only case against Curzon is this transmission that was sent giving away the general's whereabouts. And Curzon is unlucky enough to have no alibi at the time the transmission was sent.

Um, and before Odo leaves... She asks after Curzon and is visibly shaken to hear that he has passed away and Dax is now in a new host. Yeah, and 

Lily: I mean Kira could take a leaf out of her book because it's some beautiful subtle reacting. 

Cole: It's internal but we know something. Slight tremor in the hand. Yeah, we know it's really bad news, but it is subtle.

Fionnula. Great name, by the way. Fionnula Flanagan. Yeah. She's bringing it. Love her. Yeah, you [00:44:00] know she's hiding something, but she's still playing her cards close to her chest. She is. 

Lily: Yeah, her face is sort of barely giving anything away, but you can tell.

Cole: Even through all that temple makeup, 

Lily: The walls are a very rough stucco, I'm just saying. It's very 90s, 

Cole: So, we're back at the hearing. The judge is looking ready to get this over with. The prosecution calls another trill to the stand. And man, he is incidentally the sketchiest, creepiest trill. Oh, so sketchy, creepy. We're talking obligated to come knock on your door when you move to the neighborhood.

Lily: Creepy. Give him a pair of creepy sex pest glasses and call him Jeffrey 

Cole: Dahmer. He's built like a celery stick, like seven feet 

Lily: tall. But the eyes don't blink, that's what's creepy about it. The eyes are dead. Yeah, 

Cole: shark eyes. The prosecution establishes from him. that the Symbiont carries the memories of previous hosts and thus would recall the details of a crime, for example, and maybe even the guilt of it.

And then Tandro suggests, well, then it's the perfect trill crime. [00:45:00] Just elude capture long enough until the Symbiont transfers hosts and then goes scot free. 

Which made me think the human version of that is just dying before you get caught. Right? 

Yeah, 

Lily: but I mean, I guess if you've got a bone to pick, the slug's got a bone to pick.

Right. From host to host. 

Cole: And then the slug, once it goes to a new host, could write, like, If I had done it. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, okay. Fair. Well, Sisko, meanwhile, presses Creepy Trill Dude to point out that hosts aren't joined until their twenties, so that they can mature and develop their own personality first.

And then that host's personality... Joins and blends with a Symbiont, rather than being replaced or suppressed. Then Sisko and Tandro get in a fight and Madame Arbiter bangs her wooden dinosaur egg. Bang it, lady. I said this could be informal, not riotous. Two hour recess. There will be 

Lily: a two hour 

Cole: recess.

Lily: And it's great. She's all cut the shit. You guys suck. [00:46:00] I'm going to go have some soup 

Cole: and a nap. I want my nap and my soup. I want to zoom my grandkids. Oh, no. Oh, come on. No, she doesn't want to, does she? She's over that crap. Also, they're 

Lily: like 40. She's 

Cole: Well, I think you mean for all we know. 

Her daughter is 40. As evidenced by Keiko.

Well, 

Lily: could be. I'm not making the rules for these ladies. Do what you do. I get the feeling she does not have children or stepchildren. Oh, she does. Or grandchildren. She does? She does. She mentions it. Does she? Oh, I read that wrong. 

Cole: Alright. Alright. ah, 

Lily: she's such an icon. Oh, she's so good. 

Cole: I wish she 

was 

Lily: a recurring 

Cole: character. I really wish she was. You know, she came before Judge Judy. No! Yeah, she's actually the proto Judge Judy. 

Lily: Do you think Judith Scheinlen watched 

Cole: this? 

And created her entire persona?

I mean, she did exist before that. No, that's who Judge Judy is. So, Bashir's about to take the stand, but first Madame Arbiter's [00:47:00] thrilled to share a new idea she's come up with. A simple solution. 

Lily: Oh, this is a good bit. split her down the middle. Yeah, yeah, so

Cole: She says, well, we can just split her down the middle. The Judgment of Solomon? Exactly, that's what I wrote. Yeah!

Same brain, same brain. only... Okay, 

Lily: just for context for people who aren't familiar with the Judeo Christian... 

Cole: Bible. 

Lily: so I think the story is... It's that two women both have babies and one of them dies in some calamitous way and then so one baby is left and then both women are claiming that this baby is their child.

And so Solomon has to... Has to make judgment. Yeah. On who the 

Cole: mother is. And so Solomon says, well, it's easy. You can both get half the baby We'll just split it down the middle per per judge Bajoran icon. Yeah, and you can both get equal access Yeah So 

Lily: the the one who's not the real mother is like well if I can't have him then no one can and the real mother Says no, no, just let the other woman take the 

Cole: baby.

Okay, she says my child being raised by someone else is better than him 

Lily: being split in half. And then [00:48:00] he's like Gotcha! 

Cole: You're the one. So wise, Solomon. Classic. Classic tale. I'm not sure there's a direct link to connect here, but it shows that she is wise just like Solomon. She's Solomon incarnate. 

Lily: Split 

Cole: her down the middle, I say.

Well, Bashir reigns on her parade by saying that unfortunately, after joining, splitting Symbiont from host would kill both of them. Bummer. The judge, uh, sort of sighs with disappointment and sits back down. She tried. Yeah. So Bashir takes the stand and Sisko prompts him to point out that Jadzia and Kurzon are medically distinct people, pointing specifically to their different brainwave patterns.

But then Tandro gets Bashir to also explain that a joined trill has two different brains that are sort of linked together like computers, and the symbiont's brainwaves have remained the same. Even after switching hosts. So it's the same symbiont brain from one of us to the next. Fine. But poor, poor Bashir, when he has to admit this, [00:49:00] he just hangs his head like he has utterly failed the woman of his dreams.

I mean, 

Lily: he had one job, find some evidence, and he didn't do it. 

Cole: He looks crestfallen. I'm like, emasculated. He's like, I am useless. Yeah, and he is. Yeah, exactly. And he gets it. 

Lily: Go punch yourself in the face again. 

Cole: So then Sisko calls himself to the stand as the one person in the room who knew Curzon. He invites Kira to direct 

Lily: the questions.

Oh, and this is when Kira gets her Ally McBeal moment. 

Cole: Oh, tell me everything. No, 

Lily: that's it! She's a female lawyer and it's the 90s. 

Cole: Oh my gosh. Sorry. Really, really strong intertextuality that you just brought in. Cue the dancing baby 

Lily: now. Look, it's no Nicole Kraus, a man walks into a room. 

Cole: We'll get back to that.

Lily: I just, look, I wrote my notes originally. Wrote that line about Kira having an Ally McBeal moment, and I was like, Ooh, classic little [00:50:00] reference there, Lilly. Then, you bring it up at the top of the episode. I did. It had to be said. And also, I'd found out that this lady, the Arbiter, had been in Ally McBeal. I mean, I don't know what to tell you.

It's just destiny. It's, it's full circle. Yeah. That show is 

Cole: crazy though. You and I were destined to have this conversation on this 

Lily: podcast. Take my hand. It's sweaty. 

Cole: Mine is. Okay. So, um. Mine was sweaty, not yours. Yeah. 

Lily: Sweaty like a 12 year old boy. Oh, it's so... 

Cole: Sisko is on the stand. He starts by calling Curzon a less than ideal trill who drank too much, was more interested in women than he should have been.

They're like, dude, I thought you were defending this guy. Yeah. He says, I'm simply pointing out that he was not at all like the young women on trial in this courtroom. Mmm, it's true. And isn't it interesting, if you watch this, I mean, just food for thought, it doesn't sound unlike the Jadzia Dax we get to know.

Yeah. And I think I had [00:51:00] this mind blown moment at the scene, thinking, Oh, they didn't know who Jadzia was when the show started. But wait, what if Jadzia, who has just recently joined, hadn't figured out who Jadzia Dax was? I 

Lily: mean, who knows themselves at 28 

Cole: years old? And then when you get the memories of seven other people put inside you, you have no idea who you are.

Yeah. And I think what we're seeing in season one, and am I apologizing for underdeveloped characters in season one? Yes, that's exactly what I'm doing. But what you're seeing is Jadzia. This brainy hard working scientist and you get to know Jadzia Dax over the course of the series I mean 

Lily: she literally contains multitudes.

She really does. For real. Oh my gosh. 

Cole: I wish I were a joint trill. Do you wish you were a joint trill? No. No? 

Lily: All the, all the memories, all the emotions and feelings and memories. 

Cole: So maybe you're in the camp of memories or just... Baggage rather than I'll be the guy 

Lily: who lost his memories. I'll be free. 

Cole: I don't know where I land on this debate.

I do think [00:52:00] that having the memories of seven or eight other people who were never me, who lived by different experiences and different values would enrich me more than just Cole's memories. I think they'd give me. So much more knowledge and skill and wisdom that me, in my little Colorado white boy bubble, could have given me.

I, I mean, sure. 

Lily: But you know, love yourself, Cole. 

Cole: Oh, I do. I think I'm great. But I would have been better with eight worm memories inside me. You just want a worm in me. Goddammit. 

Lily: Just 

Cole: one. A squiggly worm. Put it in. 

Lily: Again, one of the other reasons. We've never slept together. No worms. 

Cole: you want some more wine? Yes, please. Our friendship feels evergreen and yet filled with years of beautiful memories. Oh, 

Lily: cheers to that. Cheers again. Oh, I'm loving this [00:53:00] Lovefest tonight. . 

Cole: So Sisko says, Hey, I'm just saying that this is not the young woman in, in the, the bar before us

Uh, he says, Kon was great. He taught me about art and science and diplomacy and honor. and honestly, I'm really jealous of having that as a mentor. I mean a mentor who teaches you about art and science. Yeah. , I mean. 

Lily: Not only do you get a cool gourmet chef father, but then you get a second father figure who teaches you about life and honor and also enjoying yourself.

I'm 

Cole: super envious of both Jadzia and Sisko. Yeah. Sisko says, look, I really don't know much about Jadzia. I can't tell you about my new friend here. We're just really getting to know each other. And he and Jadzia share a really beautiful, uh, look. Yeah. There's a metaphor then about salt and water.

Marker

Cole: Ooh, yes. Alright. Do you want to take this one? I want to. I want to. 

Lily: Um. Alright. So, uh, old what's his face. Mm, Tandro. Tandro. He says, when you put salt in water, the two become indistinguishable and inseparable. [00:54:00] Sisko's all like, Gotcha! You've just made my point for me. Don't you know my father is a gourmet chef?

You don't tell me about salt water! Um, and then he makes some point about like, boiling salt water down until it's just salt and then you can add the salt to something else. That's great. That's all I have to say about that. 

Cole: It reminded me of how the Trinity was described to me at my Presbyterian church growing up.

Oh! Um, the Trinity is 

Uh, triad. ., 

Cole: it's the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, but they're also one thing. They used ice, water, and gas. So, ice, water, and gas are three different things, but they're all the same thing, right? It's probably equally as relevant as Solomon here, but again with the Bible. Let's do it.

We're in it. We're in it. They're in it. Oh. Yeah. Sorry, just really quick. When Sisko says gotcha to Tandro about the salt water thing, it's, I think, maybe the beginning of Sisko's crazy face look, where he does like the ha! I think he, whenever [00:55:00] his likeness, like Avery Brooks likeness is put in like a hologram or he's possessed or something, it's always like a crazy character.

And I think the producers would be like, oh he does crazy real well. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I'm 

glad they exploit it. It's a fun vibe for him. Yeah. Um, but Madam Arbiter, she is so fed up. 

She is worn out. 

Cole: She says, alright, I'm going to give everyone an hour's recess, and then Jadzia is taking the stand, whether she wants to or not.

Oh, God. 

Lily: And Jadzia, look. I've been trying to give her the benefit of the doubt and she's, you know, stoic and whatever. She's got things going on. But at this point, she is acting like a bit of a wet sock. She's 

Cole: frustrating me at this point. Like, 

Lily: she's not doing anything and she's not explaining herself to people that are really her friends and really 

Cole: trying to help her.

It's pretty exasperating if you've put in all this effort to save her and just give us something, Jadzia. 

Lily: Maybe she's got a strong code of contact for herself. 

Cole: Slug self. What is going on behind those eyes? So Odo messages with an urgent [00:56:00] communique from Klaestron 4. He's been reviewing comms logs from military headquarters 30 years ago, and it shows a lot of communications between Curzon and the General's home when the General was not home.

Sisko says, the wife. The wife. Odo says, the 

Lily: wife. Yeah. And he's, uh, uncovered a torrid affair, I guess. And, where is Gossip Chief when you need him? 

Cole: He's celebrating a very important 100th birthday. 

Lily: He's, uh, he's had too much sake and it's the next morning and he's enjoying a bowl of oatmeal. 

Cole: This classic Friday night, Saturday morning for Miles.

It's 

Lily: what he does. 

Cole: Oh, so, back on Klaestron 4, Odo goes to confront the General's wife about the mounting evidence of their affair. Messages, gifts, holidays. I love 

Lily: the evidence. He's like, records of gifts, a stay at an inn, like, ooh, what a tawdry affair. And then 

Cole: my [00:57:00] favorite line from the whole episode. She says, What purpose does this serve?

He says, It serves the truth. Which, coincidentally, entirely, this episode came out a year after A Few Good Men. You can't handle the truth. I mean, look, it was a good line. But a good line. So, Anina hints that the general was in fact no hero in real life.

Since it's death.

She's had two. 

Cole: carry bravely on Defending his name going to all these banquets in his honor, but apparently he actually wasn't that good of a guy But he's hailed as this hero by his entire planet.

She says I'm tired of pretending for the general That's what I have to do. But maybe I can stop pretending about who I 

Lily: am. Maybe she can. She says cryptically Yeah, but his legacy is still important, I suppose. Yeah, 

Cole: and I think there's a whole debate too about the importance of writing the history and [00:58:00] believing the myths we want to about our heroes, um, and whether these myths are worth Protecting and fighting for?

mean, apparently they serve lasting peace on this planet after a rough civil war. I suppose that's okay. Yeah, I mean, what kind of lies do I buy into from history? All the good ones. So, Sisko goes to Lily's favorite room on the ship, Jadzia's quarters, to confront Jadzia with his new revelation. He says, oh, so you're protecting the wife with your silence?

Is that what this is about? Is it really worth you, quote, committing suicide? for something done in a past life? He even asks if this dude, Tandro, who's prosecuting might be Dax's son. 

Lily: Yeah, look, he's trying out all his debate techniques. Like, every style of rhetoric is, like, crammed into this 

Cole: interaction.

Yeah, but he's, he's getting so frustrated. And then, this really fascinating blink and you miss it line. He says, Damn it! If you were still a man. 

Lily: Because he sort of goes to punch her. [00:59:00] 

Cole: And then he stops and goes and punches a wall. Yeah. 

Lily: Yikes. It's something we didn't really know about Sisko. And I am less into him 

Cole: now.

But you know, actually in episode 2 or 3, he talked about getting in bar fights with Kurzon. He and Kurzon would get drunk and get in fights with random aliens. And he's regressed. Yeah. I mean, to me, I think there's something really interesting about the fact that Sisko and Dax had a more physical relationship when Dax was a man.

Yeah. Isn't that interesting? Yeah, they would roughhouse around. Yeah, and now there's this barrier. Yeah, you know, you can't hit a woman. I mean, like I don't condone it, but right. I guess it's just a thing about gender norms is that he feels like this wall has gone up. So he just has to talk to his friend now. Gross. will he manage? Oh, I don't know. 

Lily: for him. 

Cole: I mean, can they just like hang 

Lily: out? Like, I don't know. Can he just go punch 

Cole: Bashir? He probably goes and punches Bashir. That's how men interact.

But still, all Jadzia will say is that she feels shame for [01:00:00] Curzon's indiscretion. She acknowledges that. She says, I can tell you that he did love her, for whatever that's worth. Yeah. And that there's nothing really else that Benjamin can do. No. 

Lily: I love that thing between friends when someone's mad but then there's something really funny and silly so I think Jadzia brings up an anecdote.

It's quite funny and he can't help himself. 

Cole: Actually it's really beautiful because I think she even mentions Curzon gave him a scar from a time that... 

Lily: Curzon had to punch out Sisko because he was getting too up in someone's face and so Curzon had to... Weirdly like, de escalate the situation.

Yeah, 

Cole: and the ring on Curzon's finger left a scar. And Jadzia tried the ring on after she was joined and it just fell right off the finger. 

Lily: This is the first time I feel like I see her acting. Yes. And it's, it's quite moving. She says, yeah, I tried on that ring after Curzon died and it just slipped off my finger.

It's beautiful. It's kind of amazing. It's the first time you see this. disconnect between who she is and who the slug is inside of [01:01:00] her and the different feelings of who your identity is when you feel this connection to your past. And it's actually something that Nicole Kraus talks about in her novel.

Really? Because she has this amazing gift for metaphor and she compares the predicament of having lost your memories but sort of retaining some sense of self as a man seeing himself in the mirror after a recent haircut. So it's like this sense of otherness about yourself where you recognize yourself, but you don't at all.

Cole: Oh, wow. Yeah. 

Lily: And I feel like that's something that Jadzia is really grappling with in this moment, that it seems second nature to her to put on this ring that supposedly Curzon has worn, his entire life. And it just slips off her finger because it doesn't fit her. It's just. Yeah, it's 

Cole: a, it's a nice moment when, uh, Ezri joined in season seven.

She had not been training her whole life to be a host, and she really, really struggles with this barrage of memories. But Jadzia had been training for a decade to handle all this confusion and probably also taught to, to reign it in [01:02:00] and keep it inside and deal with it in your own time. And here it's finally leaking out from this, aloof exterior.

Yeah. she's 

Lily: having a moment of vulnerability with. Sisko because that's what he's been asking for this entire time. Like, share with me, tell me what's going on with you. But yeah, so everything I said about her being a wet sock before, I take it all back. Um, she is a classy 

Cole: trill. she's classy.

Yeah. And, uh, learn more about her in the next scene. It is time for Jadzia herself to take the stand. And the judge has another really great line. She opens and says, Lieutenant Dax, you are either 200 years older than I am, or you're about the same age as my great granddaughter. Oh! Now I am bothered by the likelihood that you may be both.

So, when Sisko questions Dax, we learn that Jadzia had wanted to be joined, Ever since she was a child and had worked very hard for it. She won scholarships, competed and tested in countless ways. And there's this nice exchange where Sisko says, yeah, remember that. Which I think is saying fight for your life because you worked really hard before you were [01:03:00] joined.

Yeah. She also says, when asked about her schooling, that she has premier distinctions in exobiology, zoology, astrophysics, and exoarchaeology, all of which she earned before joining, which made me think, what is she doing on this gulag remote outpost? I mean, why? It's a good thing she discovered the wormhole, so she has something to do.

I think she's a little overqualified. I think she was lonely. 

Lily: Maybe she wanted to be close to Sisko. 

Cole: yeah, and maybe, Sisko especially requested her, and she's like, yeah, I would love to, right? Yeah, all right. New friendship, old friendship. And I, again going back to Terry Farrell's acting, when she lists off her accomplishments, she lets out just a glint of pride.

Jadzia is really proud of how badass she is, and she's like, yeah, I did this all on my own before I was even joined. As she should be. Yeah. So Sisko says, hey, this young woman has done nothing but contribute to society. How can she be charged for crimes she didn't commit? But then our buddy Tandro comes up and challenges, well, you chose to become a host, and didn't you then choose to accept all the [01:04:00] responsibilities and consequences that might entail, including...

the criminal acts committed by past hosts, question mark, question 

Lily: mark. It's a bit of a Sins of the 

Cole: Father moment. Exactly. Star Trek's into that for some reason. Love Sins of the Father. 

But we never get an answer to that question or even an answer to the hearing itself because the doors whoosh open and in walks.

Anina Tandro. Oh, sorry. Yeah. Dada's mom. In a beautiful veil. 

Might I add. 

Oh, it's so good. This deep teal veil thing. It's so good. She presents an alibi for Curzon at the time that the transmission was sent. Curzon Dax was in her bed. Oh! And the judge just says, Perhaps then, Mr. Tandro, you better re examine your extradition request.

And she finally flounces off to her supper, and maybe a nice cup of tea. And you know what? 

Lily: I think she kind of loves how this [01:05:00] case ended up. You know, she's like, oh, boring semantics. And then someone comes in and she's like, He was in my bed. And she's like, mmkay. Yeah, she's 

Cole: loving it. 

Lily: File that away for later to tell my great granddaughter.

Cole: And I'm sure she's relieved that she is not responsible for this decision. She can go play bridge with her friends. She's like, I quit. But okay, I do think the decision was decided by a wise, powerful woman in a blue dress. Just not the one you thought it would be. Yeah. Right? Oh yeah, she like 

Lily: really shares a look 

Cole: with Anina.

Yeah, she walks past Anina. Walks past 

Lily: her and she's like... 

Cole: It's almost like, thank you so much, but also like, get it, girl. 

Lily: And like, acknowledgement. We are both 

Cole: women over the age of 50. It's not easy being over 50 in Hollywood. I mean, in Star Trek. Yeah, they're like, us powerful women gotta look out for each other.

I love it. And D. C. Fontana, the writer of this, she gets it. She's looking out for women over 50. She sure is. So we get one closing scene [01:06:00] of Jadzia and Anina walking together on the upper promenade. Anina thanks her for doing so much to protect her. Someone you've never even met, she says. And Jadzia says, well, I remember what we had together.

And then you get a little more about what actually happened 30 years ago. It's a little convoluted, but I guess the general decided to switch sides. And so he... was the one who sent the transmission to give away his own troop's location, but oops, the rebels killed him anyways. 

Lily: Yeah, he was the Great Betrayer.

That was the secret that Curzon and Anima 

Cole: were protecting. Yep, so I guess Jadzia was protecting the general's reputation and Anina's reputation. And the peace of the whole And the peace of the entire planet. So she didn't say much, but she was doing her best to be a hero the whole episode. And she was.

Yeah, and she is towering over Anina. Man, Terry Farrell's tall. 

Lily: She is. She is really good looking. 

Cole: So Anina asks one last favor. Live, Jadzia Dax, live a long, [01:07:00] fresh, and wonderful life. And strokes her face. Strokes her cheek, walks away. Jadzia touches her cheek. 

Lily: You can see in Jadzia's face the part of her that loves this woman.

Totally. 

Cole: So Terry Farrell said that when they filmed this scene there was an original take where there was a moment where you weren't sure if the two people were going to kiss but then oh that would have been too much for 1993. No, yeah. But Terry Farrell thinks that it could have totally worked if the producers had let them, right?

Yeah. And so thank goodness in season four you got to explore love between past hosts. That's true. So yeah, thoughts on this this final scene? Uh huh. 

Lily: Look, I like the evocative use of the word fresh. Yeah, right? 

But I understand, I understand what she means. What did she mean? Well, Curzon exists inside of her and Curzon is living on, but this is, this is something without.

As much baggage as Curzon had. She shouldn't Sort of like the fresh start, the fresh 

Cole: existence. And she shouldn't have to be burdened by the baggage of past memories. By the past. She's still a young woman with her whole life ahead of her. By the intergenerational 

Lily: trauma. Yeah. Even though that [01:08:00] is what you sign up for as a Trill.

Cole: Yep. But, Jadzia should Live a long, fresh, and wonderful life anyways. Oh, she should. Oh, she should. Spoiled. A nice quote I found from the writer, She says this last scene is about old relationships and some of the things you do for them. The kind of love that carries forward, even though you can't physically carry it forward.

And that got me thinking about our past lives as humans, past relationships, past places we've lived, people who at one time meant the world to us, and now they're someone whose phone number we have on our contact list, right? But if we found out that they're in trouble, that they need something from us, would the love that's still with us spur us to action?

So how, how does love go on into another life when the physicality might not have? I love that idea, 

Lily: yeah. I'm just thinking about my own life and which exes that I would jump to help them in a trial. 

Cole: You might not know until, uh, until you're asked to. 

Lily: Yeah, yeah, I suppose for the [01:09:00] sort of deeper love for the people you've 

Cole: experienced.

Hmm. I, um, thought also about the statute of limitations in this episode. I even googled. So most countries don't have a statute of limitations for murder, but they have it for almost everything else. And the reason why is it might be hard for the defendant to find evidence to defend themselves. It's hard to find texts from 30 years ago or whatever.

And that's the main reason rather than just, well, Who they were 30 years ago might not be who they are now. And so a crime they committed when they were a 20 year old, should they still be punished for it at age 50? 

It makes me think what is the point of punishment? Are you doing it to like teach someone a lesson?

Are you doing it to keep someone off the street so they don't commit another crime? Those both might be irrelevant if the person has grown and moved on and not committed similar crimes for 30 years. So even in our human lifetimes, we can, we can change and become new people. Yeah, that's true. I like to think.

Lily: Sure. I mean, this is something that's brought up in law and order quite a lot. 

Cole: What about 

Lily: Alan McBeal? [01:10:00] Uh, and Cold Case. You know, we've seen that. That's really bad. Don't watch Cold Case. 

Cole: It's very bad. If you take one thing away from this episode. Don't ever watch Cold 

Lily: Case. That's what I have to say about that beautiful thesis.

Just espoused. 

Cole: Yeah, I, when I watched this for the first time, in prep for this, I was like, okay, really interesting episode, but it's about Trills, who are fascinating, but they're not human. And that quote from Fontana, and just thinking more about how long even a human life is, helped me connect with the meat of the episode.

 I think it is a bit of a shame that we still never actually got an answer from the trial, but I guess we're not supposed to. It's a debate. Is there a wrong or right answer? It doesn't matter. No, it doesn't matter. It's a debate. Yeah? Yeah. It's a shame that Jadzia was so passive in an episode even titled after her, but we still learned so much about her and about Dax, and I even have now forgiven.

season one for underwriting her, because I think she was maybe even living in this inner [01:11:00] turmoil that she had learned to suppress and deal with in the privacy of her own quarters, and she lets the Dax out with each passing year. 

Lily: Look, and you know me in this podcast. I'm ready to rake the writers over the coals.

Coals.

Cole: How's that wine going 

down. 

Lily: But I'm on board with you. I really like this post hoc justification for Jadzia's wet sockiness in season one. Because I feel like that glimpse, that moment of struggle she has. I think that's where sort of the facade slips and she is struggling internally with what it is to exist with all these different existences and memories inside 

Cole: of her.

Yeah, and maybe this is even a turning point for her when she'd been trying to suppress, suppress, suppress. Yeah. Curzon and all these other memories and she's realizing that there's joy to be had from reconnecting with Anina. or reconnecting with, like, getting in bar fights with Sisko. There's, there's joy from those memories.

And she's, what's the book you referenced? A Man Walks Into a Room. Yeah, [01:12:00] so maybe she is ready to be the more Cole side of this debate. It's like, yeah, there is joy from memories that I might have wanted to bury, and she's ready to let them out of the Pandora's box. Yeah, and I am 

Lily: ready to see it and whatever else she 

Cole: wants to show us.

Ugh, she's my role model in all things. Is she? You just want to slug in, yeah? 

Lily: I 

Cole: think she's a genius who doesn't waste a moment of joy in life when it presents itself. And she works hard, but she's grateful for each moment she's got on this crazy galaxy we call the Milky Way.

Oh, 

Lily: she is. She is grateful. And she really does, for someone that's had so many experiences, take joy. in every experience 

Cole: she has. Oh, she would have loved this, this evening, in this year of our lord, that I will not mention, so that we can remain timeless. 

Lily: I mean, I've just realized the wine is a 2020 Chablis, so it's a bit of a context clue there.

Cole: Ruining everything. 

Lily: I [01:13:00] liked that 

Cole: episode. I didn't realize how good it was. And should we quickly offer some Fashion Watch remarks? 

Lily: Fashion Watch! That was 

Cole: beautiful. Thank you. Oh, you've got such a beautiful voice. 

Lily: Oh, stop. 

Cole: Mine was the gray haired gorge in the blue dress. Which one? The one who used her power to give justice.

Which one? The one who has seen some things, has put up with a lot of men's shit, and is ready to just go back home and have a nice cup of tea. Yeah. I think that, I think that's probably a judge then. Madam Arbiter. Madam Arbiter. She has a name. Els Renora. 

Lily: Ah, great name. Yeah, she looks fabulous, the hair is great with the cobalt, the silver, it brings it 

Cole: all out.

The silver accessorizing really pulls it all together. 

Lily: She makes, she makes. Everyone 

Cole: looked rad, yeah. May we all look as stunning in our[01:14:00] era. Yeah. Oh, we finished the one. Did we actually? Yeah. That makes me sad, it was so good. Oh, 

Lily: it was great. It was delicious. Yeah, what did you think?

Tell me. Tell me any thoughts you had. 

Cole: Um, I think said it was a white wine that's flinty, I was not looking forward to it. Really? I mean, flinty to me sounds like bad water quality in Michigan, not good wine. Right, okay. It just sounds rough and dry I think I'm like a sweet white guy. I mean, I am a sweet white guy.

But, I wasn't ready for this to be so refreshing. 

Lily: Yeah. No, when it comes to white wine, flinty equals good. 

Cole: yeah. What is flinty then? 

flint is hard grey rock. Yeah, so 

Lily: it's, again, it's about the terroir. Right. I it's about like, what it's grown in.

So you're getting this, like, minerality. You're getting this, like, clean driven flavor coming through rather than... muskiness or fruitiness or... 

Cole: For somebody to be flinty it means it's bringing through that terroir. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. I'm with you. 

Lily: Michigan water. Rough Michigan water.[01:15:00] Look, it's all about context, isn't it?

It's all about 

Cole: context. 

I wish I were a trill. No, don't be a trill. I want to pass my memories, and I wish someone could remember how much fun it is recording Deep Space Wine episodes, but the memory's gonna die with me. What? 

Lily: This is being saved for 

Cole: posterity.

I guess it is literally being recorded. This is 

Lily: being recorded and put on the internet for hundreds upon thousands of people and millions to listen 

Cole: to. Xenoarchaeologists will find this podcast. 

Lily: They'll be playing with their little brass dials. sniffing an orchid and come across this artifact. 

Cole: Oh, well then on that note, we're so glad to bring the joy to all of you.

Thank you for listening through our deep, deep analysis of Dax. The man, the woman, the worm, the episode. Yeah, beautiful. Beautifully put. Thank you. And we'll see you all next week. Yeah, thanks. Thanks for listening. Bye. Bye.[01:16:00]